Daikin 9kW ASHP application discussion

Interesting…while i use pure modulation and no wd curve the result is effectively the same as yours as my temps are constrained between 33 and 39c. As you say the unit seems happiest at these temps with cop of over 5 usually. With just rads and 4 x 2.5kw fancoils I run normally at dt of 6. I raise this dt to 8 in December to February as i need to allow it to put out its maximum without having a high flow…which causes a lot of noise in my 22mm and 15mm piping.

My reason for modulation only is that it adapts better for the variable fancoil output. It might run at 38 at morning start up even with highish outside temps but it quickly modulates back to 33. On the other hand, on colder days with the sun shining it can still modulate down to 33 whereas a pure wd system would keep it higher. Swings and roundabouts but i still think that good wd setting on its own is too dependent on the user getting the curve right.

I feel that pure wd might be better for well set up underfloor systems.

I set up my sons new vaillant 7kw system last week and that runs with easy to use standard wd curves and the option for modulation that is preset. After start up its quite easy to reduce the vaillant curve from say a standard 0.9 to 0.8, 0.7 …until the hp fails to keep the house warm. The numbers relate to the steepness of the curve…which is a curve and not a straight line. It seems easier than Daikin with less chance of messing it up.

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Hi Marko,

I haven’t contacted Octopus or Daikin about this.

I dare say that many of my issues are of my own making and I need to start again from scratch now that I have radiators that are appropriate to what I am looking to achieve.

I can’t see any point in contacting anybody until I am sure it is not my fault.

I am pretty sure that Octopus would not know the answer though so it could only be Daikin.

I removed the Madoka influence yesterday and I can now run at 35c with the correct electrical input so that is good.

I am not getting the heat output of others yet and maybe I never will. I need to concentrate on the radiator balancing which I haven’t done yet and then assess where I am at

I am sure I have less than ideal pipework to some radiators but that will have to wait to another time.

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I have had to turn my flow temperature right down now, it’s at 30c with an overshoot of 4c.

The COP was pretty good today but the house got to 25c downstairs and nearly 24c upstairs and I had to open doors and windows to get rid of the excess heat.

I think I am as low as I can go now, electrical input is 860w and won’t go any lower.

I’m a bit puzzled though, I have spent a lot of money doubling the size of my radiators and seem to have made very little difference. Or maybe it has.

I guess what will happen now is that the flow temperature will increase within the overshoot window to maintain the set delta t of 5c. As the house temperature rise the output of the radiators will fall and the return will rise until the heat pump shuts down, or the heat produced will match the heat loss of the house if the outside temperature falls enough to stop the internal temperature rising and thus enabling the radiators to sustain the delta t of 5c.

Maybe this is my most efficient way of running the heat pump when it’s output is too much for the house when it is warmer outside.

This is 26 October 2023, I am actually getting less heat output and a lower COP today than I was then

This is today

The COP was pretty good today but the house got to 25c downstairs and nearly 24c upstairs and I had to open doors and windows to get rid of the excess heat.

I’m a bit mystified by the house temperature being high. Does it not have some sort of room thermostat? I thought that the Madoka was a wired remote control with a temperature sensor, so that should act as an internal thermostat if positioned correctly.

There’s nothing wrong with a system which is capable of fully heating your house and being turned off when the temperature is high enough. If the Madoka doesn’t do it I’m sure that some sort of normal central heating thermostat could be fitted.

Hi Bill,

I can use the Madoka to limit the room temperature just like every other heating system.

But I have been experimenting and aiming to be able to just run a fixed flow temperature just to get the COP as high as possible, as a challenge.

I cannot get the efficiency that others are seeing and I wanted to try to find out why.

I can run it just like a gas boiler now as I could before, short cycles to limit the heat going into the house.

It’s inefficient though in terms of COP but I will have to run it like that in the end.

It would be OK if the heat pump wasn’t so power hungry in the first 30 to 90 minutes of running. That is why running it for short bursts is something I don’t want to do, but I will have to.

What I am trying to do is find out just what my heat pump and the rest of the heating system is capable of, how much heat my house really needs and how efficiently I can do that.

I am going to heat another building with my heat pump soon and my tests this week are giving me a good idea of how much heat I can divert to that building. If I get the radiator sizes correct in that building I should be able to run a fixed flow with no Madoka influence and keep the house at the right temperature whilst utilising the full output of the heat pump at the lowest flow temperature and the highest COP possible.

So far I have found that using the Madoka to control the heating has a detrimental effect on the COP. I don’t really understand what it does but it seems to make the initial phase of a heating run more aggressive in electricity consumption, just what I don’t want if shorter cycles are necessary.

I have viewed the first couple of months of using the heat pump for heating as an experiment and a way for me to learn and modify the house to get the best I can out of it.

I feel I have got somewhere, I don’t understand everything but I know a lot more about this heat pump than I did two months ago.

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You are barking up the wrong tree with this.

For the effort invested so far you could have bought something like a 7kW Vaillant outright (more like 8.5 kW if run at lower flow temps; turns down to sub 3 kW very nicely and has decent controls) and piped it up direct fed and been done with. (the 5 doesn’t turn down much further so there and the 3.5 is just the 5; so less benefit to downsizing further)

Get the heat pump running in a state that matches the data book. Verify that the COP in operation is not what it ought to be. Ask the company that you paid for it to explain any shortcoming. If the unit doesn’t perform to spec it needs replacing.

Then ask AmEx to issue a chargeback for the full amount paid if they don’t offer to remedy the situation; on the grounds that they have demonstrably failed to deliver what is written on the box. Also ask that RECC and MCS terminate the accreditation of the company that you paid for it (using YOUR £7500 tax rebate; plus additional funds) pending satisfactory resolution of their failure to deliver what was written on the tin.

All this mucking about with the installation is music to their ears - the more you touch it the more room you’re giving them to keep your money that they’ve done a runner with and the lesser the chances of them having to make amends. Unfortunately. :frowning:

Adding the extra building will give yet more wiggle room and throw a bunch of heat into the ground for no particular benefit.

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Hi Marko,

I did discuss swapping the heat pump for a Vaillant some time ago, I started a topic about it.

My radiators would still have been too small to run at really low flow temperatures although not too small by much as the lowest output from the Vaillant was close to my previous radiators.

I don’t consider I have wasted any money here on the radiators, the ones upstairs weren’t even as big as the Octopus radiator schedule says as they have them as double panel single convector when in fact they were only single panel single convector.

Those radiators don’t even match the heat loss on the radiator schedule.

Octopus don’t think their heat loss is wrong in total, they think it is now even higher @7.4kW, it is just how they arrived at the figure they conceded was wrong.

My grant was not £7,500, it was £5,000.

The building I intend to heat is actually connected to the house, no heat will be going in the ground.

I will benefit from doing this as that building will now be heated by the heat pump rather than me having to heat it by other means.

As far as Octopus are concerned their heat pump and its installation does exactly what was promised, it heats the house. They never promised any more other than to meet the minimum standards set by the MCS.

I have no grounds to withhold or recover money from them.

Just because some other heat pump owners operate more efficiently than me is not grounds for complaint unless they made specific promises that they have not kept.

You have my documents, I can’t see anything in them that would let me build a case.

They will change the heat pump for the 8kW Daikin if I insist.

I am inclined to stick with what I have, at least it heats the house, who knows what problems the smaller ones have?

I am just looking at differences in heating runs today.

One did really well earlier peaking at a COP of 5.3, I thought I had cracked it.

This is this afternoon after I had let the house cool down for 3 hours. I expected to resume where I had left off, with perhaps even better efficiency as the house was cooler and the delta t between the house and radiators would be higher.

But it is not better, it is worse as the heat production is lower.

I couldn’t understand why the same flow temperature and return at the same flow rate would produce different results. And then I spotted it, the flow rate is much higher in the earlier run. When I look at the 11kW Daikins of ColinS in Basingstoke and Stephen Crown in Cambridgreshire they are both running at higher flow rates than I do, normally around 12lpm just like my earlier run.

Mine always runs at about 10lpm once it has settled down.

Can I make my heat pump run a higher flow rate? I wonder what made it run at 11 to 11.5lpm earlier?

Ah but they did. They promised to provide goods that were of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose.

If an individual element demonstrably fails to do what it ought to in isolation then it’s not of satisfactory quality.

You can still throw that heat pump back at them if it materially and demonstrably doesn’t perform to nameplate.

Noted on other elements.

Do they accept credit card payments btw; or only cash / electronic equivalent?

It will run at whatever your circuit pressure drop and the the circulation pump setpoint dictate.

Heat pump controls the latter. You control the former. Radiator valves should be the largest restriction in the circuit but you may find that pipework is restrictive on a retrofit.

They do accept credit card payments as far as I am aware.

My heat pump is fit for purpose, it heats my house, I would really struggle to argue that it is not fit for purpose.

The goods are of a satisfactory quality in terms of heating the house and heating it reliably, it works and has never failed to work in heating the house.

I need to find something actually wrong with it and I am trying to work out if it is me, the house or it.

I get the performance I should out of it at times but it is not consistent, today is a good example, this morning was great, this afternoon I cannot repeat it. I need to find out why.

I know something isn’t quite right, I know I am a bit of a pain with my ramblings but this is the only place I have to go.

Calling Daikin or Octopus and telling them that my COP isn’t as good as Colin’s isn’t going to get me anywhere.

I have yet to speak to anybody at Octopus who even understands what I am asking about, they say just run it and control the house temperature with the Madoka, as long as the SCOP is over 2.8 that is fine and the end or their responsibility.

I doubt they even know how to make it work properly, either that or they are good at covering it up.

Daikin say they don’t get involved in design and that I should talk to my installer, they again, told me to control the house temperature with the Madoka and run it in quiet mode for less heat.

All I can do is, I have a heat pump installed, it works, and if I want it to work better I am on my own unless I can find something wrong with it.

I think there is something wrong with it but I don’t know what.

Hi Marko,

My radiators and pipework are exactly the same as they were this morning. I have no valves on any radiators other than lockshields at both ends.

I have changed nothing today but a circulation pump increase from 10lpm to 11.5lpm results in a COP of 5+

I have never seen it not run at 10lpm before, I have watched this a lot.

Why might the circulation speed have increased?

It is doing it now, it has increased from 10lpm to 10.5lpm and the COP is increasing.

I don’t think I can control the pump speed directly but something is causing it to increase now.

If my pump ran at 11.5 lpm instead of 10 lpm my COP would be 5 instead of 3.5

Maybe my circulation pump is suffering from some sort of restriction?

There is a filter on the return pipe to the heat pump that I cleaned a couple of weeks ago, it is outside right before the connection to the heat pump.

I wonder if there are any more filters?

Hopefully @Stephen_Crown can help, how do you manage to get your heat pump to start up after being off for two hours and go pretty much straight into minimum electricity consumption? I cant do this even if my heat pump has only been off for a few minutes, it pretty much always goes through the painful start up process where it uses loads of electricity.

Yours

Mine

Interesting! No idea what’s going on, but

  • 12.00 there was a defrost followed by an off period of about an hour… Did you turn it off? There are no exploratory pump runs in that or the post-DHW period
  • It looks like you had a DHW event about 13.11, and after that the FlowReturn was higher than the FlowT?? Thermosyphon?
  • Restart at 15.00, FlowT > FlowR, massive power in and power out hump (2.7kW vs 11.1kW (!)), then it all settled down, 0.9kW vs 3-2-3.7kW
  • Slight boost about 17.45, FlowT maxed and then HP cycled off
  • A single pump flow to check the system temps, FlowT idle so down to 29.5C, maybe below your current FlowT setting
  • 19.23 pump comes on big time to get the FlowT back up… backs off about 20.00 having reached target FlowT…
  • Then goes into a defrost about 20.30 having been trying hard!

I’m not sure how “normal” all that is - what changes were you trying at the time? Did the DHW cut in? Mine tries hard sometimes when it comes on, but hasn’t been today.

Hi John,

I turned it off at 12.00 as the house was too hot.

DHW was scheduled at 13.00 but the time seems to drift on the MMI so it was later than scheduled in the app!

Turned the heat back on at 15.00, I think it’s just sorting itself out.

17.45 I turned the flow up from 35c to 37c to see what would happen

At 19.30 I went into installer settings to check my pump settings, that turned it off.

It came back on when I had finished.

At 20.30 I turned the flow back down to 35c from 37c, it made it stop and restart.

The one in Cambridgeshire, Stephens’s, was off from 12.00 to 13.30 and comes back on with barely a spike in electricity use.

His is an 11kW but should behave the same as my 9kW.

I really want to run the heat pump long enough and get to room temperature and then turn off but the painful restart puts me off. I wonder what is different about Stephen’s compared to mine. I wish I could just restart at practically minimum electrical input. I run off batteries most of the time and the large power consumption is an issue at times as combined with other use it makes me start drawing from the grid when I don’t want to.

It has pretty much always been like this, loads of electricity to start, a dip in heat output and then finally settles down after 60 to 90 minutes. It’s too long when I really only want the heat pump to run for one hour in every two on days like today.

I have also been comparing my DHW cycles, I was told by somebody this week that my heat pump produces about 10kW of heat when on a DHW run, I don’t see this, mine peaks at 6 to 7kW, others are much higher.

Looking at graphs and comparing I notice that my data is not smooth like others, it’s all very erratic and the performance is not at all predictable.

I want to go to Daikin but I feel uneasy about it, I’m not sure if it is just me or if there really is something wrong. It doesn’t look right to me

In your HP’s defence, it worked fine 00:00-12:00! No huge peaks, tick over nicely with one defrost and runs of 1-1.30 hours. The FlowT got pretty high 11-12, hence your turning it off. 15.00 it had a long way to come back up, so big output. The bulge at 17.45 is you raising the flow temp. I’m not sure it’s that unusual, mine would probably do the same! I’m interested to hear what @Stephen_Crown might have to say :slight_smile:

Hi John,

I agree, its doing well most of the time, it’s not a disaster.

I have been watching a couple of 11kW Daikins at times and I can’t help myself trying to get mine working as well.

I just happened to be sitting here at 11.00 and decided to turn it up to see if it would match the other two as they were running higher flow temperatures. It did get a COP of 5.3 at one point which is really great.

At 12,00 I turned it off because I knew the DHW would be coming and I would be out until 15.00 so I thought it was good to let the house cool down and try again.

I was surprised that I didn’t get anything like the same performance as I got between 11.00 and 12.00 even though everything was the same, in fact I thought it would be better as the house was cooler and the radiators would have more headroom.

I turned it up again at 17.45 to match one of the others, just to compare.

So, I agree, nothing much wrong there apart from the lower efficiency than I was getting just a few hours earlier at the same settings, I find that hard to understand as it is just running a fixed flow temperature.

But my start ups at 15.30, 19.30 and 20.30 are nothing like those of Stephens at 13.30, I would much rather it started like that.

Something must be different?

The most obvious thing is that @Stephen_Crown 's Target Flow Temp after his restart is really really low - 35C just beforehand, and then 29-30C during the restart, with a flat power demand. It makes its way up to 37C about 16.30 when there’s also a power bulge. His post explaining his settings says LWT only, with a very flat curve, and LWT Target vs. FlowTemp overshoot of 4C. No magic, apparently, but somehow it’s changed the target at the start and then brought it up slowly, which I imagine produces the soft start. He is using Fan Coil setting, dT 5C for FlowT vs FlowR., which is the same as mine.

Maybe a point by point comparison of settings would reveal something different that hasn’t otherwise been spotted?

Hi John,

Thank you.

That is why I asked

I have the flattest of curves, fixed LWT of 35c and an overshoot of 4c and I am on fan coil setting with a delta t of 5c

In theory, exactly the same but something must be different.

Maybe the WD curve setting is the key rather than a fixed flow, it could be making the heat pumps behave differently even though the flow temperature ends up being the same, it is just how it gets there.

Hmm. Surely if a HP is configured with Fixed LWT i.e. the Target LWT is actually set to some value, say 35C, then it wouldn’t vary very much, and especially wouldn’t change using a WDC? I see a wide variation in @Stephen_Crown 's Target LWT, although there is no change of Outside Temp to justify that. According to his post, he’s using LWT control i.e. pure weather comp, rather than fixed LWT.

Can you get any data on your Target LWT, to see how that is/isn’t varying? @Stephen_Crown is using ESPAltherma, which provides that, handily. So am I… time for a dig.