I didn’t ask them to go away, we just agreed that I would set the WD curve, that was it.
I have changed the emitter setting to radiators.
There’s nothing wrong with my radiators, they are all pretty new and adequately sized and also well balanced according to the heat loss survey. It was done by Octopus but I can’t see any problem with it.
The rooms are all equally warm with the TRV’s wide open.
The heat pump is working OK by the looks of it, even comparing to other makes, that is in terms of how it operates.
The thing that is causing me doubt is the efficiency and looking at the `league table’ it seems that Daikin heat pumps are less efficient than most of the others.
I understand that if the water continues to be heated it will get hotter.
The bit I don’t understand is why the heat pump doesn’t add just enough heat to maintain the flow temperature.
Why does it have to get hotter and hotter and then turn off, why not heat up to the requested flow temperature and then maintain it until either the return is too hot or my Madoka controller (of the room temperature) tells the heat pump the house is hot enough and stop heating?
My heat pump is working as well as any other Dakin Altherma 3 that I can view, my house is warm and it was warm the first day I used it when the temperature was 3c outside here. It works and the cost of operation is OK compared to gas.
I don’t need to but I just wanted to improve the efficiency so it was as good as I could get it.
This seems to be as good as it gets with this heat pump.
I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how a heat pump works in this respect, and probably also a gas or oil boiler.
Looking at my data it appears the heat pump can only continue to increase the flow temperature, it cannot maintain a flow temperature.
I really thought it would heat to the flow temperature requested by the WD curve and then maintain it until the desired room temperature has been achieved.
What it actually does is heats to the WD curve flow temperature, shut down, cools down, and then has another go (and so on) until the desired room temperature is achieved assuming the flow temperature and emitter design is enough to achieve that.
If I want to achieve the desired room temperature in one hit then I need to increase the flow temperature via the WD curve.
The heat pump tries to add just enough heat to maintain the flow temperature, but given the fact that the minimum it can output is already reached and the house needs are even less, there is no other option than just stop so that the water temp doesn’t go too high needlessly.
This is what it does, but as the return increases the flow will increase as well because the HP is already at minimum. You cannot have a constant flow with the return matching it, as this means less heat transfer from the compressor, which in turns means less efficiency(which as you are discovering, with Daikin, is already less that it should be).
Again, this is the case because it’s already at minimum, and load is less than that.
Here you can see some data, but not as much as you would like to. The way I see it from the data shared, Daikins don’t have the efficiency stated on their papers, even more if the installation lacks perfection.
A bench test between a daikin,mitsu,vaillant,(other) would be something worth to have on this site @glyn.hudson@TrystanLea
In your case Matt, is looks like the 9kW model picked by them is a unit that is sold as a 9,11,14,16 range, in other words you have a 16 which is tweaked to be a 9, thus the modulation minimum efficiency cannot compare with a unit that is max 8-9kW. Saying that is looks like it can modulate really low 3.5-4kW but the efficiency is crap regardless. If you actually needed only a 6kW(your calculation) but ended up having a 14-16kW capable unit, then something is not right. So let’s get over a winter and then you will see how it goes for you.
By having a 14-16 as a 9er, you can be sure that it will put out the rated 9kW at any temp.
Radiators are not “balanced” by a heat loss survey. That’s radiator sizing.
Radiator balancing is making sure that the right amount of water goes through each radiator. A radiator twice the size needs twice the water flowrate etc.
You cannot tell this by looking a them by eye. You can tell this by staring the system up from cold and looking at them with an infra red camera. (they should all “fill up” with warm water and the same rate)
Do you know how Octopus did the radiator balancing?
The issue with that is you are conflating the heat pump AND the properties / installers when looking at the league tables.
Is it the heat pump that’s materially worse; or is it the type of person/property that buys it; or is it the installer?
Daikin is a quality product that one would not expect to see at the bottom of a league table. The Madoka controls are decent too.
Good Energy tend to install cheaper products. (Midea) You can be polite and suggest that they are perfectly adequate. You wouldn’t suggest that they are amazing. Yet their fleet average is apparently sCOPs in the mid threes. (data yet to be published)
Look at Glyn’s Gen6 Samsung or some of those Grant (Chofu) units. Nothing exotic but executed well.
I would not give up hope that decent performance can be extracted from a Daikin system based on what you see from untouched installations by large contractors.
You see, this is something that plays role in how we see the efficiency of two different HPs at different load conditions, your pump consumption is higher that what we can see from other brands, same for another Daikin 9kW that is shared.
If your heat pump puts out 4000Wh using 900Wh including the high power consuming water pump that is a COP of 4.44ish
But if you would be to compare with other systems that looks like the water pump consumes only tens of watts, thus lets assume we take out 100Wh, a 4000Wh heat output using 800Wh will give a COP of 5.
Equally the lower the output the more of a difference in COP those 100Wh will make vs the higher/max output.
This tells me why the Daikin is/looks to be less efficient in reality, without taking in the account that we don’t know if in their certification paperwork, this high consumption of the water pump is included in their COP calculation/certification equation.
A heat pump CAN run continuously and maintain a set flow temperature IF the radiators can put out at least as much heat as the heat pump generates at minimum output.
On the “heat pump” worksheet you can see the min/max output at various supply/return temperatures for various outside tempreatures.
Point 1)
The datasheet excerpts aren’t in English becuase English installers are considered f**king muppets by the manufacturer so they dumb down the English manuals to avoid person-in-blue-van or -erson-in-purple-van or person-in-red-van having heart failure.
You do want to know what the min and max outputs are if you’re designing though!
It’s also notbale that peak COP is NOT at minimum or maximum output but somewhere in-between. (that’s why they startup and shutdown instead of turning down furhter - it’s more efficient)
Point 2)
The “7 kW” unit is good for a max of 9 kW at -2C and can turn down to 3.5 kW at +12C
On the “Emitters” worksheet you can see each radiator and what the power output is / flowrate needs to be at certain temperatures.
At 45/40 they kick out 9.6 kW
At 35/30 they kick out 4.5 kW
So the heat pump can happily tick away constantly from flow temperatures of 45C down to something below 35C.
You can also see - if the balancing is correct and all that water is equally in motion - that there is 103 litres of water to heat up and cool down. At the minimum heat pump output (say 3.5 kW) the time it takes for that water to go from say 25C (with the radiators putting out maybe 1.5 kW) up to 30C (with the radiators putting out 3.5 kW) will be plenty (2 kW kettle boiling 1 litre of water 100 times? You’ll be there a while) The cycles will be long
Takeaway?
These heat pumps should have REALLY long cycle times IF all the water in the system is actually in equal effect.
Chances are it isn’t. Chances are that a significant proportion of the water is short-circuiting through some radiators. The house still gets warm but your effective volume in circulation is small and the heat pump cycles away even when it shouldn’t be.
There’s also the possibilty that the 9 kW heat pump isnt’ conencted to 9 kW worth of radiators, so it’s haveing to “turn down” even when it’s fully cold out and then quickly runs out of “turn down” capability at part load.
So back to the question: what is the output of the radiators that this 9 kW Daikin heat pump are conencted to? If it’s less 9 kW that will be contributing to startup and shutdown; or the unit generally running away from it’s best efficiency point.
I can’t upload the radiator schedule from home, I would need to be at work.
But the total radiator output is 8,883 kWh at a design temperature of 50c
I am beginning to understand, thank you.
I am an accountant, not a heating engineer so this is not really my thing and I am doing my best
So it’s clear, my radiators are big enough to cover my house heat loss with a 50c and an outside temperature of -2.3c
This is what it was designed at.
It is also clear that my radiators are not big enough to handle the full output of my heat pump.
And that will get worse as I lower the flow temperature.
Not big enough to run as low as I was trying to.
Really the heat pump is too big for this house. I could correct it by getting a smaller heat pump or moving radiators around and increasing the size of some.
Well adding up numbers it’s actually a big part in designing a system that matches the:
Numbers of the house with the numbers of a heat pump ending with the numbers of the radiators.
Keep monitoring your system over the winter, making tweaks here and there, and learn what works best. Check out some of the other threads around this forum for more tips and tricks…
So you have convinced me that Octopus don’t really know what they are doing.
It hasn’t taken long for me to see the problems.
But it is not the installers, they just fit what they are told to and mine has been fitted well.
The problem is in the design, and maybe the choice of equipment.
I am sure the Daikin heat pump is of good quality but a quick look at the data from other heat pumps and it’s probably not the one you would choose.
My heat loss survey was not great, I had to help the surveyor quite a lot, my heat loss calculation was ridiculously wrong at his first attempt.
I think the problems also stem from what seems to be a box ticking exercise to comply with MCS requirements. It is all that seems to matter. To back that up I have an auditor coming on Monday to check the `quality’ of the installation. He will be getting an even bigger piece of my mind than I was planning!
So it seems I have a too big version of the wrong heat pump coupled with radiators that are too small, particularly when it is cool but not cold and the heat load is low.
The slightly better news is that it will probably work better on the few sub zero days we get and should be able to cope with the rare days when it gets to -10c.
This is the nominal output with the radiator at 80Cflow60C return (average 70C) and the room at 20C (hence 50C delta from average radiator to room)
Or is that at a supply temperature of 50C (and return temperature of…45C?)
Or is that at an average radiator tempreature of 50C (so supply 55C/return 45C?)
It makes a difference. Let’s see what their schedule says.
You are 300% more qualified than many plumbers then! (numerate, literate, and above all interested)
If they are rated for 8.8 kW at 50/54 or 55/45 then that’s plenty big enough to handle almost the full output of the heat pump when they’re fuly hot.
We can guess at the minimum output from your heat pump even if the OEM doens’t provide it. 800W electrical input COP4 (probably about right), would put the minimum around 3.2 kW. COP6 (optimistic) would but it at 4.8 kW.
From this, and a guess of the water volume in the system, you can estimate when it will begin cycling and what the cycle times ought to be. If they’re shorter then you have a balancing issue.
Depending on what the contract says you could potentially demonstrate that it is to big (metering) and ask Octopus to swap it out for a more appropriately sized unit.
Or you could likve with it and mitigate the worst effects of oversizing by having your space heating circuit as balanced and open zoned as you can so that it runs for a reasonable time and performance doesn’t take a hit because of the cycling.
If you go back in history old boilers were range rated by the installers. They would dial down the flame so that it matched the maximum output of the radiators. (i.e. min boiler output = max boiler output = max radiator output) It would only run continuously if it was maximum cold outside. The rest of the time it would cycle. The purpsoe of the “range rating” was to keep those cycles as long as possible. (it would still work if it were left fialled up to 11; but the cycles would be short and efficiency would suffer) There’s really nothing new in this world!
They’re operating at a loss (over investing in making their own equipment; losing money on installs to buy market share; giving away electricity at below cost for a period) to buy market share; whacking them in as fast as they can; doing what they can to clog up the airwaves and hoover up as much grant money as they can so that others don’t etc.
In phase two they start doing even lower performing high temperature installations, to reduce the capital cost of whacking them in and avoid losing money on that, but compensating for this by giving you a chepaer electricity tariff (lossmaking) for a while.
In phase three they withdraw the cheaper electricity tariff altogether, link it to some unneccessary expense such as annual servicing and care package etc, or make it only available to the original buyer etc.
All the while whipping up the fanboys in the press and governemnt. See also: Tesla, free supercharging, etc.
You liked the installers. Most trades are liable I think. They come. They win against pipes and wires. They’re happy at winning. They give off good vibes.
The first part that appears to be lacking here is engineering. The surveyor needs to have a clue about (a) buildings and (b) heating systems. You can’t use a “make some stupid shit up and call it an EPC” type surveyor. They actually need to be serious and you actually need to spend serious money on them.
I think in the Octopus world you can give your mother an app and she becomes an expert on buildings and heating systems.
Perhaps not. Perhaps they would have worked out the heat loss and designed a heating system that’s able to work with the heat pump if you had left them alone. Probably not. Sounds like it would have been even worse.
MCS is pretty irrelevant. It’s sole purpose is to make it difficult to install heat pumps (it’s illegal to install one unless you’re an MCS union member; without having to go through planning) and to ensure that nobody can access grant finance except MCS members (i.e. rule one make sure you exist)
It’s completely ineffective because MCS will do very little s if the contractor doesn’t follow the scheme rules, especially if they’re a nice big fat bill payer like Octopus. We can see this through the DESNZ trials that showed Ovo / EON / Warmworks royally fudging up heat pump installs, metering these such that tey had proof of how fualty the installs were, and no remedial actions being taken.
Karma at your install haveing been selected for assessment. Evidently they thought you were their number one fan and have put it forward as their entry for assessment.
Will you be as nice as Joanna Lumley?
“I think we are all agreed that Octopus didn’t know how to finish the heat pump installation at the time it was fitted, and their fitters needed to go do another job, so Octopus instructed the fitters toa gree to leave it in default settings in contravention of para 4.4.10 and were to confirm this in writing in their submission to MCS, with the intentiont o return and complete the commissioning to Daikin’s satisfaction and balance all the radiators blah blah”
Yep - you’ll be toasty.
Pleasure to chat with somebody as curious as you are
It just says design flow temperature 50c, when I spoke to them that is 50c from the heat pump.
Knowing what I now know, I think I have it set up nearly OK. It’s heating for an hour at a time, sometimes nearly two hours but less when it’s warmer, sometimes only 30 minutes.
But I think it’s nearly there, I can just up the flow temperature a bit so I get to the requested room temperature in one go more often.
It’s definately not short cycling in terms of on for 5 minutes, off for 5 minutes and then on again etc etc.
What I can do is move three radiators from downstairs to the upstairs, replace them with bigger and then increase the one remaining bedroom and the downstairs cloakroom.
That will add a lot more capacity to enable the heat pump to run at lower flow temperatures without providing more heat than the radiators can emit.
I will be explaining to Octopus what they have done, I’m sure it’s a waste of time though!
I think there will be days when I will be grateful to have this heat pump. I think my best plan is to increase the radiator capacity next spring/summer, a job I can do myself.
I was hoping to see COP’s between 3.50 and 4.00 during the heating season and I am really not that far from it.
I’m at 3.32 today and I have been experimenting. I have always said that I would be happy with anything 3.00 or above so it’s certainly not a disaster.
Another very interesting thread! Like you, as we discussed on another thread you started, I had a Daikin 9kW ASHP installed by Octopus in May, and used it in earnest last weekend. My Madoka room thermostat is unfortunately in the S-facing front room (my mistake when asked by installer, it was a convenient route and installation spot :-/), any sun at all and the temp exceeds 20deg, whilst the N-facing back room was really cold. Rather than mess with thermostat offsets, which would require manual intervention any time the sun came out (!), I switched to only weather compensation i.e. flow temp determined by outside temp. This has worked really well from a comfort point of view, so as a first pass, we’re happy. Hurrah. My wife thinks the radiators are voodoo, because they never feel “hot” but the rooms are toasty! I’m inclined to agree…
I have adjusted the WD curve to be (flow/outside) 50/-7, 26/15, because the house is warm enough at 14/15 outside without heating. It was previously 50/-7 26/20 as left by the Octopus guys. However, when it got to 14/15 outside, it was still cycling on, so I discovered the register [4-02] which sets the maximum temp for the space heating to come on, and set it to 14. Bingo, HP turns off :-). I guess I could move the upper setting to say 26/20, as it was, and have the max outside temp setting turn it off, but then it might be too hot at the high setting when it’s 14 outside.
You can also set up a simple schedule to change the flow temp by ±x degrees, in the Daikin MMI, not in the app. Go to installer controls, Space Heating, and you’ll find it. I’m still experimenting with this, since the outside temp isn’t constant it’s hard to judge if the floe temp is dropping overnight - I set it to -2 22.30-6.00, but the crucial back room is hardly changing temp at all, as monitored by a simple SHT3X + Tasmota ESP8266 + MQTT + NodeRed combination.
I don’t have your sophisticated energy output monitoring, but I could… and might! I probably need to go through the Octopus survey and radiator numbers to see how they work, having read the very instructive advice you’ve been given here. My lead installer certainly seemed to know what he was doing, but there were a couple of points where I was a bit “hmm, I’m not convinced you know why you’re doing that!”. And I’ve found out lots since.
I think this is yet another demonstration, that an HP is not fit an forget by installers. It needs tweaking to get the settings correct for maximum (acceptable) efficiency.
This is what the installer hate and have zero incentive to do. Therefore, only those householders who take any notice will do anything about it.
And for may that would equal - HPs are crap, when in fact it was a problem with the settings not an inhernet problem with the HP.
Yep, but for most they don’t know to ask that question!!!
What do you mean by “get to the required room temperature in one go more often?”
Are you…dialling the room temperature up and down?
So that inseatd of the radiators running cool and constantly putting heat into the property at a low temperature you’re making them run hot to get it up to temperature and then do nothing?
That will hurt your COP. If you’re aggressively changing temperature it can hurt more (through reduced COP) than it benefits (through reduced heat demand through the ventilation heat losses dropping slightly overnight)
That isn’t a valid answer without the corresponding return temperature. It will be (should be) on the MCS docs somewhere though.
For very similar operating conditions *8 degC out and a positively tropical 37 degC flow temperature) the 7 kW seems to edge out the 9 kW unit at lower outputs:
Big nigtht setback (so hammering the unit hard in the morning at poor COP instead of letting it tick over all day) and charging up DHW at the coldest part of the day instead of the warmest part of the day when the sun is shining etc.
I would start with the unit in an “idiot simple” mode:
No time clock
Pure weather compensation
Ticks over all day with rads at a very low temperature
DHW setpoint 50C
The introduce the load compensation:
Target water temperature is tweaked up and down a bit if the room is too far off setpoint due to sun / cooking etc
Then time the hot water and dial back the setpoint:
For the hottest part of the day to maximise COP for the hottest event of the day
Setpoint 45C
And see how you get on.
Then only after you’ve got it working well like this do you experiment with setback / timing to try and reduce the amount of heat lost (by reducing air temperaturs overnight) by more than you reduce the amount of heat provided (through worse COP when reheating from the air being cold)
If the radiators really are almost 9kW “at 50C” and your heat loss is really only “about 6kW” at design condition then you should be running them barely lukewarm at the moment and getting materially better than COP 3.3
Yesterday was a one off day. I turned the heating off whilst I was at work so that when I came home I would be able to change the setting form fan coils to radiators without waiting for a heating cycle to finish, I wanted to heat from a cooler starting point inside to see how it performed.
My schedule of room temperature is set at 18c from 21.00 to 05.00, 21c from 05.00 to 13.00, 22c from 14.00 to 18.00 and 23c from 18.00 to 21.00.
No big jumps and the house isn’t falling below 20c at night very often.
It just didn’t behave as I expected yesterday.
I heat the DHW at 14.00 each day, or that is my schedule. It automatically reheats. I run my disinfection cycle at 04.00 on a Friday as it uses cheaper electricity and none from my battery. My SCOP is distorted by the disinfection cycle as the immersion heater electricity use is reported but not the heat produced.
The radiator setting has a set delta t of 8c, it is fixed at this using the radiator setting.
My DHW is on an eco setting at 45c
From my data I can see that yesterday between 09.00 and 10.00 my house was absorbing 10.6 kWh of heat at a flow temperature of around 30c.
Maybe I am interpreting the data in the wrong way but it looks like my radiators are more than capable of delivering all the heat produced, even at the minimum my heat pump can produce?
Important to remember that the most important thing is cost. I run my DHW overnight as my electricity is 7.5p KWH so at a COP of 2.5 that is 3p per KW of heat. I would have to achieve a COP of over 8 in the day to get the same cost. Add to that my main hot water demand is in the morning for showers etc so would lose even more efficiency letting the hot water in the tank cool overnight, heating it and using sooner has got to be more efficient.
