Incompetent Installers , incompetent regulation Do I need a MIM-B19N?

Does this weather station look correct for the outside temperatures you are experiencing @iantelescope:
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IRENFREW4/graph/2023-01-13/2023-01-13/daily

  • 5th January: 8.1C (high 11.2C, low: 5.6C), COP 4.13
  • 13th January: 6.6C (high 9.2C, low: 4.4C), COP 2.6
  • 16th January: 0.0C (high 4.3C, low: -3.2C), COP 2.77 (on from 8am, internal temp rising from 14-18.2C 5:30pm)
  • 17th January: -0.6C (high 3.6C, low: -4.4C), COP ?

Today so far:

  • 18th January: 2.3C (high 4.0C, low: 1.4C), COP ?

If it’s not too much work, if you could keep a table with daily figures for:

  • outside temperature average
  • outside temperature min
  • outside temperature max
  • electricity consumed
  • heat generated
  • COP
  • description of internal temperature profile, e.g: on 8am 14C, 18.2C at 5:30pm, 19C at 9pm, off at …

A lower COP on Jan 13th seems strange but may reflect the heat pump not being used much on that day? the standby consumption may be dragging down the apparent COP or if most heat is hot water heating COP is likely lower…

Hi John and Trystan,

Because of the dispute between Samsung/Telford , the manufacturers, and my “installer” about the “ludicrous” costs demanded by Samsung to “repair and fit the Volumiser tank” I was never given the calculations , or position of the Volumiser tank.

In late October, my “installer” secretly fired the “manager” who had “designed” the Heat Pump.
The “manager” being positioned as the sacrificial scapegoat for the failures .

I specifically wanted a Samsung because a “Samsung did not require a buffer tank”.

I received a Samsung complete with “the modern replacement for a buffer tank” , a heat Exchanger.

The Heat Exchanger , divided the pipe circuit in two. The Volume presented to the Heat Pump was now circa 6 litres. The Heat Pump began Cycling with a period of about 8 mins when the outside temperature was 15 C…

On contacting Samsung and Telford a Volumiser /Buffer was proscribed, with Samsung-Dalliam “installing the Volumising tank”.

My "installer " in describing the Samsung Prices as “ludicrous” refused to pay Samsung.

Samsung’s demand for £550 per Engineer per day for two engineers for three days plus a mileage , from Wigan to Inchinnan at 60p per mile was indeed “ludicrous”.

The "installer " manager was then fired for “Technical incompetence” with a single “engineer” being sent , finally, for an “online” course on “Maintaining and Repairing the Samsung”.

The 50 L Volumising tank was finally fitted late in October across the Input ports of the Heat Exchanger.

ian

Hi Trystan,

Again , Trystan , you have made me Question my outside Temperature readings!

Excellent idea , I will correlate my consumption and COP readings with the online local Temperatures!

Outside Temperature Measurement?

I have previously used a cheap Temperature sensor behind my glass front door with backup from my car Temperature sensor., with the car showing temperatures of -6 to -8 C.

The best temperature sensor would be the internal register within the Heat Pump itself.

Access to the Temperature internal register, 4008, would be perfect.
Do I need a MIM-B19N !.

It is a pity that the Samsung controller does not show the Registers within the outdoor unit.

Does anyone know how to interrogate the internal Registers within a Samsung without the expense ( ~£136 ) of a MIM-B19N ?

Many thanks Trystan, You have made me think!

I will, in the interim, take your advice and correlate local on-line temperatures with Consumption and COP figures.

ian

Hopefully @glyn.hudson can give you some input on that. I dont know enough about Samsung specifics to say, I know Glyn got the modbus module and has been recording data using that.

Great look forward to the results!

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Hi Trystan,Christian,William and Bill,

My “installer” has now been struck OFF, again, for a separate infringement to an another customer.

Nice to know I am not alone!

My “installer” has agreed to send an engineer …maybe, possibly ??

ian

Hi Trystan, Christian and William,

Cop is not enough !

COP is a measure of efficiency, it is a ratio of Energy produced to Energy Consumed.

COP does not measure the ability of a Heat pump to meet the heat required to heat a house.

Consider my model Stirling Engine

My Stirling engine, mounted above my back up heater, is very efficient.

But, My Stirling Engine could not power a Toy model boat let alone a Supertanker!

My Living Room , with a Thermal conductance of 78 Watts per degree, an outside temperature of 0 C , and a demanded temperature of 21 C would conduct

Total Room Heat conductance = Thermal conductance X ( Room Temp Demand - outside temperature)
Total Room conductance = 78 X ( 21 - 0 ) = 1.64 Kw

Assuming the Temperature to be stable over 24 hours the Energy consumed would be
Energy Consumed by my living room over 24 hours = 1.64 X 24 = 39.4 KWh

However, my Heat pump only produces a daily average of circa 35 Kwh.

So, I am in negative Energy equity , with a demand of 39.4 Kwh and a supply of 35 Kwh.

When the Outside temperature falls to -8 however , my demand increases to 54.3 Kwh with my supply falling to 30 Kwh.

Therefore,I need to considerably increase my thermal insulation when temperature fall below Zero!

As an aside have another look at the swiftly spinning Stirling Engine above my Heat Engine Back up Heater.!

Robert Stirling’s engine vividly demonstrates Joules in action!

One other point I would make is that Room conductance SHOULD be measured , not taken from a table of conductance estimates multiplied by the room surface area.

ian

HI Trystan,Christian, William,

This is warning screen that appears nightly when my outside temperature drops below 2 C.

I am negative Energy Equity, Cold and broke.

My "installer " having been Stuck OFF for a second offence may have left me solely responsible for the Heat Pump.

ian

Hi Ian

Sorry to hear of your issues with your install, the cold spells will push most heat pumps pretty hard and this will be exacerbated by the current energy costs. My own installation is consuming around 20-30kWh of electrical energy per day at the moment, this is for a 7kW Vaillant Arotherm, also based in Scotland so with similar outdoor temperatures.

I’m not familiar with your heat pump but, your warning message doesn’t appear to highlight a particular problem with the heat pump itself, more likely to indicate that you are reaching a preset daily electrical consumption budget.

It looks like there are another couple of cold nights coming, could you possibly try keeping the heat pump on throughout the night, even with a set back temp of 19 from your daytime temp of 21, rather than having it switch off completely. The heat pump is working very hard to bring it back up to temperature in the morning, causing the heat pump to defrost more often, use more energy and struggle to reach temperature. It would be good to see if you could get your room temperature to a steady state and see how well it holds the temperature.

You may find that with the heating on continuously you can drop your set point from 21 to 20 as the fabric of the building will be kept warm and feel more comfortable. Taking this approach may improve your COP enough to make it more economically viable than switching off completely over night, at least during cold spells.

Sorry if I have missed this from the thread above but were you provided with any of the MCS documents, such as heat loss calcs/ results?

Were any of your radiators upgraded during the works - do you have any detail on what radiators are in your system?

Do you have any photos of where your heat pump external unit and external temp sensor is located?

Colin

1 Like

Hi Colin,

Nice to hear from someone nearby!

Samsung’s Overconsumption Warnings

I fully appreciate the meaning of these Consumption Warnings!

My Point is rather, Why has Samsung has these built these warnings into it’s software?

Samsung seems to “expect” overconsumption.

Taken together with the Overconsumption warnings , the Samsung is equipped with five other controls limiting or curtailing Power Consumption.

Samsung expect , on balance, the user to experience overconsumption!

For Samsung users, Field controls , 5041,5042, 5043 specifically control overconscientious by switching the Heat Pump OFF when a specific consumption is reached.

Consequently, I am convinced that Samsung fully expects the user to have problems with Heating , and paying for their “overconsumption”.

This overconsumption expectation should have been explained before the Heat Pump was installed.

I do not doubt that all other Heat Pump makers have the same expectation!

My Heat requirements, “calculated” on the basis of a lowest temperature of -3 C , using an unrealistic estimated Conductance (KW per degree per square meter ) were inaccurate.

I have measured my living room conductance at 78 Watts per degree, giving a total heat room conductance of 1.64 Kw .when the external temperature is Zero and a required room temperature o
21 C.

If 1.64 Kw were consumed each hour for 24 hours I would consume 1.64 X 24 = 39,4 KWh.

My Samsung heat pump proudly displays that it has generated 35 Kwh in these circumstances.

I am, now, in negative Energy Equity.

I must improve my Thermal insulation.

Given that I, like yourself , live in Scotland , where the lowest temperatures locally is about -8 C, My Energy balance would be a 54 Kwh demand with a supply of circa 30 kwh. Negative Energy Equity!

I have, experimentally, reduced my thermostat settings to 12 C , 14 C and currently 16 C to limit the overconsumption , but , I am am now, as you say , unable to achieve a reasonable room temperature before 8 pm when starting Heat pumping from 8 am.

I cannot, now, achieve a balance between Consumption and room temperature.

I currently use a oil filled Electric Heater, with Sterling Engine on top , to speed up heating , and hopefully , humorously, display my energy usage.

My “installer” has now been struck OFF for the second time by NIC,RECC and the MCS.

ian

1.6 Kw

Hi Trystan,

The COP and Minimum Temperature figures for January are shown on the graph
cop_temp.pdf (7.3 KB)

The Graphs show No Correlation between Minimum outside Temperature and COP.

My Heat Exchanger is marked EAC , PED /97/23 EC.
EAC is the manufacturer.
PED 97/23 EC is the EEC Directive covering the Heat Exchanger.

The NIC has confirmed that they are still pursuing my “installer” , but, the installer having been struck OFF, again, “may” be outwith their control.

The NIC would , in these circumstances advise “approaching Trading Standards” , Citizens Advice or “litigation.”

The RECC, has presented their Technical enquiries to the NIC.

I am speechless , but totally unsurprised!

A retired QC at the court of session, has said that while I would probably win the case " I would be bankrupted in the process".

Incompetent Installers,incompetent regulation …correct!
ian

Hi Ian,

I sympathise, I really do, but I think you’re doing this all wrong. Forgive me if my info is incorrect but as far as I am aware you are running really low flow temperatures (30-35 was the last I saw in this thread) because you see the power peaking and are worried about the cost. As a result you have not found any settings that keep your house warm enough regardless of the cost.

It’s a bit like expecting to drive from Glasgow to London on 1 gallon of fuel (or not enough at least). Or expecting to get the train from Glasgow to London but only pay a couple of quid. It’s not going to happen.

In my opinion you should try to find some settings that actually get your house warm enough. Start by using water law settings of 37/50c at 15/-5c (as I have already mentioned those come from the Freedom Heat Pumps installation manual and relate to Scotland).

Once you have found some settings, review the total energy consumption/cost for that period and decide if you want to try and reduce. If so, start tweaking and see what happens.

For background info I have a Samsung Gen6 heat pump but 16kW, so it uses around 3 times the power that yours does, and I have approximately 3 times the heat demand too. I had been running much lower flow temperatures but when it snowed in December had to reinstate the recommended settings. You may remember I had an electricity bill of £30 for the worst day.

Here’s a chart of my heat pump’s daily consumption:

My flow temps (37/50) are just about keeping us warm enough, with jumpers on in the evenings.

Now, I may have got mine all wrong but at least we’re warm enough.

Good luck!

2 Likes

Hi Christian,

Sorry Christian,My PC has just completely crashed, I am using my backup . bear with me!.

I am also sorry that I have not properly explained my predicament.

On cold days, such as today, I cannot get enough heat from the Heat Pump to raise the temperature to 17 C throughout the entire day, no matter that I put the Flow temperature up to 50 C and open every valve or control . I am simply cold.
On these cold days , I rely on an oil filled Electric heater to raise the temperature to 20 C .

On warmer days , > 3 C , I am slightly warmer and can lower the flow temperature to save .

The Heat Pump can deliver between 30 and 50 Kwh per day ,but, I am often consuming

Energy Consumption = Room Conductance X ( T demanded - T outside ) X 24
or
Energy Consumed = 78 X ( 21 - T outside ) X 24 = 78 X 21 X 24 = 39.4 Kwh
while
Energy Generated is averaging 30 Kwh.

i.e. 39.4 > 30 Kwh

When cold, my Energy demand is greater than my Heat Pump can produce!

On Cold days I am cold no matter what I do.

My Heat pump has insufficient power for the low outside temperatures!
or
The house insulation is inadequate.!

ian .

Hi Christian,

Many thanks for your patience Christian. I Do appreciate your input.!

With my “installer” now "Struck OFF " by the MICS,NIC and RECC , for the second time, I have reached rock bottom .

On Cold Days & nights, below zero, my Heat Pump is incapable of heating my house up to 17 C let alone 21 C.

My Electricity consumption, at circa 500 KWh during December, is unaffordable.

On warmer days , with outside temperatures between 3 C and 7 C , I am consuming more Electricity than I can afford.

I do appreciate that my Gas energy consumption may have been higher had I kept the Gas boiler, but I would not have faced the large installation costs.

The NIC now advises , after seven months, that I take legal advice, despite acknowledging that legal advice being that “while I might win my case , I would be bankrupted in the attempt”.

The NIC and the RECC are staffed by intelligent , embarrassed , sensitive individuals , but are “unable to help”.

The great volumes of “guarantees” from RECC,NIC and the MCS have proved worthless!

This “light touch Regulation” of the Regulators, MCS ,NIC and RECC must STOP.

Installers should be subject to proper Control and discipline by the Regulators.!

ian

p.s. I sill ask the question "Why are the NIC,RECC and the MCS “private” Charities…with profit and loss accounts?

Who regulates the regulators, "AKAS takes no responsibility "?

Hi Ian,

Silly question - are your outside pipes to the HP really, really well insulated? I have 2x 14m of piping covered in dense black foamy stuff, I think I lose about 1c between HP & house. Edit: just checked, losing 0.2c with outside temperature 5c.

Also, where your pipes come into the building do they lose heat to the fabric of the building?

WRT costs, at least our governments are helping out this year!

Christian.

Hi Christian,

i am still rebuilding my PC’s following a strange monumental Crash .

The outside and underfloor pipes are well insulated. The HOT Water Tank Pipes are not insulated at all, the leaking heat being used to heat my kitchen.

My problem is finding , and measuring, the heat losses caused by the Heat Exchanger and the Volumiser Tank.

How to measure water flow without breaking into the pipes?

I suspect the Heat Exchanger loss to be around 7.5% while the Volumiser tank is consuming another 5%.
These “losses” are again used to heat the kitchen , and are therefore not a loss to the building, but, reduce the heat available to the Radiators by (100 -7.5) /100 x(100-5/100 ) = 12 % .

I have now switched off the Volumiser tank and the HOT Water Tank to , hopefully, save some Energy and money and see what happens to the Cycling. See graph
power

The Cycling is worrying , in that it consumes so much energy and is audibly causing the Pump bearings to object during the night.

ian

Hi Christian,

Last night I switched OFF the volumising tank and switched OFF Hot Water Heating.

The power supplied during this period is shown in
power

The Absolute Flow Temperature is shown in
abs_temp_HP

The Radiator Temperature rapidly increased until the radiators became too hot to touch!

I have concluded the following

  1. The Heat pump is easily capable of heating my house.
  2. The Heat Pump becomes “unstable” without the Volumising tank.
  3. The Volumising tank presents a low resistance path for the Flow water.
  4. The Heat Exchanger in presents a high resistance for the Flow Water.

So, For stability I need a Volumising tank , for economy I do not need a volumising tank.

I must compromise between stability and economy!

The other discovery of the evening was the effect of the Water Thermostat settings , 2091 options 2,3 and 4.
With 2091 option 4 selected the flow temperature can rise to 65 degrees when the Volumising tank is removed.
I have selected 2091 option 2 to set the Thermostat Hysteresis to 0 degrees.

Again…
I must compromise between stability and economy!

ian

That’s great news!

Your previous post made me realise you have not given any indication (IIRC) of your flow rate, which is available when the HP is running, from the indoor zone information in the 0202 menu. Mine is usually 24.n, if it goes lower I have to clean the strainer/filter.
What’s yours?

Interesting results @iantelescope! seems like some settings adjustment could get it working stably without the volumiser. How many radiators did you have open when it hit 50+ degrees?

Does the circulation pump on the primary side of the heat exchanger always go on and off at the exact same time as the circulation pump on the secondary side? Is there a risk the secondary side pump could be off for a period when the primary is on …

Can you or someone else explain this setting in a bit more detail? which service/installation manual are you using @iantelescope ?

Hi Trystan,

The Field setting 2091 are described in the “Air to water Heat pump” page 28 and 29.

The description of the 2091 option 4 is given as the sequence

WL Thermo Switching OFF → Switching Water Pump ON for thee minutes followed by

→ Switching Water Pump OFF for 7 minutes followed by a final

→ Switching the On for three minutes

The Water Pump Timing Diagram is shown below page 28 of the manual.

Why this is used is not explained in the text.

However, Thermostats like the Water Law Thermostat, must be inhibited from repeated triggering when operating about the switching temperature.

To prevent repeated triggering, many Thermostats use “Hysteresis”.

Hysteresis is the difference between the Temperature that the Thermostat switches OFF and the Temperature that the Thermostat switches ON.

The 2091/2092 options 2, 3, and 4 are, by my interpretation

2091/2092 option 2 = Hysteresis = 0
2091/2092 option 3 = Hysteresis = +1 C
2091/2092 option 4 = Hysteresis = +2C.

All of these options have different switching patterns as given in the text.

I may be wrong, but , from observation , the operation of the Water Law thermostat seems to follow my interpretation.

ian

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