I was forced into using a NIC MSC regulated heat pump installer. Now 13 weeks after starting the Heat pump is still not working properly.
The Registered “installers” “forgot to install” a Flow switch , an expansion tank , and a Buffer tank!
The “installers” halted proceedings while they got one of their engineers to attend a Samsung course on "installing "Samsung Heat pumps!
I now want to check up on these “installers” with my own Emoncms system.
The Samsung Heat pump is already fitted with a RS485 /Modbus interface. No Space for the MIM-B19N.
Do I need a MIM-B19N interface module therefore?
Can I use a RS485 to USB Adaptor to interrogate the Heat Pump?
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As this post is some time ago, I hope you have it working by now. I would be interested in what defines/defined “not working properly”.
In any case, if you go to menu on the remote you will find a menu option to view all errors, assuming this issue is triggering error messages.
Just finished my own diy install of 16kW Samsung heat pump, very happy with it, no issues in the first 6 days, will see if I missed anything fundamental. With our old house (we are used to keeping the room temperatures lower even on the old oil boiler) I am averaging cop between 4 and 5.2 (though not when heating the hot water cylinder)
Hi William,
My monthly Electricity consumption has now risen to over 630 Kwh for December.
This four fold increase in my energy consumption is completely unaffordable and unsustainable.
My “installer” initially failed to install a water flow sensor,Water Expansion vessel , PRV , Volumising tank and Electricity consumption meters. I have, consequently , after 7 months , no confidence in my installer".
Complaints to the NIC and the RECC resulted in my case being handed to the MCS.
The MCS says that the NIC and RECC have not “not exhausted their investigations”.
I have , consequently, after 7 months, no confidence in the MCS.
In retrospect, I should have installed the heat pump myself.
The Excessive consumption messages on the Samsung have now stopped with the rise in outside temperature.
Is my Samsung a Heap Pump or a air conditioner switching between heating and cooling , with the cooling used to de-ice the Heat Pump during the night?
iantelescope
Have a search for ‘HeatGeek’ they come highly recommended and, AIUI, have engineers across the country.
Hi Brian,
Many thanks for the “HeatGeek” recommendation. seems to be a good site.
I have asked for help from a local Heat Pump installation company only to be charged £96 for a visit from an “engineer” who recommended a complete re-installation at a cost of £5000.
The “engineer” would do " a without warranty job " for £1400.!
I did not accept the “engineers” assessment! I am poor enough as it is!.
Why are so many of these “Heat Pump engineers” so arrogant, incompetent and innumerate?
What is AIUI …I can find no reference to this organisation?
iantelescope
Hi Brian
Many thanks for the recommendation of Heat Geeks. I will try and pursue this new opening.
Unfortunately, England is covered by hundreds of Heat Geeks …but Scotland has but two in the entire country!
Dalliam ,Samsung’s heat pump servicing and support company , did offer to repair my Heat Pump but were charging £550 per day per person for two engineers over three days. Dallium were also charging 60 p per mile from their base in Wigan in England ( ~£250) . All of this not including VAT or the proposed " 50 litre Volumising tank". Samsung /Dallium would however supply a guarantee and warranty.
Sorry, but I am a 75 year old OAP just trying to "Save the environment " not become a bankrupt living in hypothermia .
Sorry, but my OAP vocabulary did not include AIUI …sorry for my innocence!
ian ( Viktor Meldrew apprentice)
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Hi Willaim,
My Heat Pump odyssey continues , now entering my Seventh month.
With hindsight I should have bought and installed the Heat Pump myself! .
My “installer” failed to install over seven major components , finally firing the “maintenance manager” for "not having a Technical background ".
My Complaints to the NIC and the RECC were declared valid and passed to the MCS.
The MCS has , over seven months , failed to act against my Installer.
Were it not for my MSP I would have had to pay £14K for the privilege of owning a heat pump built peace-meal over four months…and still not complete!
Why is the regulator , the MCS " a registered Charity" ?
ian ( A trainee Viktor Meldrew !)
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Hi William,
The NIC EIC regulator for heat pumps includes a "Wall of shame " showing the names of the companies falsely claiming NIC accreditation.
Similar " Walls of shame" should include false accreditation to the RECC and the MCS!
Every prospective heat pump customer should , now, consult the NIC “Wall of Shame”.
ian
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Hi Ian
It sounds to me like it might be worth escalating your complaint to UKAS, who accredit the certification bodies to the MCS standard (I used to be a technical assessor for UKAS). I’m not saying that UKAS will do any better, but it is another avenue… https://www.ukas.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/UKAS-B22-03-2022-UKAS-Complaint-Leaflet.pdf
Regards
Rachel
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Hi Ian,
I am very sorry to hear that you are still having issues.
I am not sure you need the MIM-B19N, well not at this stage, you can probably get snapshots of the state of play of the heat pump through two menu options and take photos of them.
Indoor Zone Option → Indoor Zone Status Information
and
Connection Information → Master Indoor Zone Information
From there you will get flow rate, and the input and output temperature of the water.
My current strategy with radiators and UFH has been as follows.
#1 Maximise flow rate - upgraded pipes where I could to 28mm (even this is a bit small for the amount of pipe run I have and I estimate I have about 1.1 m/s flow speed and was targetting 0.9)
#2 Use anti freeze valves to avoid glycol ( and avoid a 10% drop in efficiency)
#3 Use a single but powerful pump - with a carefully calculated head - to avoid the need for a low loss header (with its associated efficiency drop due to mixing water)
#4 UFH has 100mm spacing with spiral pattern to minimise flow temperature/maximise flow rate
#5 chose to live with lower temperature in radiator fed rooms (18 deg is what I can get the rooms to right now - may add fans to the radiators later), again, to minimise flow temperature (vs 22 deg in kitchen dining area & bathroom, which both have UFH)
#6 leave the heat pump on all the time with a 3 degree delta T target
#7 set the “water law/weather compensation” to values that optimise efficiency and use that (but with heat pump always on)
Our [very old] house has never been this warm!
Other things I did
#1 Used a mixture of RO water and mains water to reduce hardness of the water
#2 Added an automatic air vent just after the pump
#3 Added a pretty expensive filter to the return just before the final filter
Where did I get most of my knowledge?
If you search YouTube for “Video 1 freedom heat pumps gen6” watch that, then “Video 2 freedom heat pumps gen6” watch that, etc, up to Video 18 - you will get an excellent overview of a correct Samsung Heat Pump installation. I pretty much followed this for the install.
But before starting I spent many many hours reviewing all the “Heat Geek” videos on YouTube that I could find (over many many months).
I have read all 4 Samsung manuals front to back (they won’t make much sense without the freedom heat pump video series, and even then the Samsung manuals are very difficult to understand in places)
Happy to provide my perspective based on my very limited experience - if you have any more questions.
William
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I’d be writing to the Papers. The Telegraph has had several items on Heat Pumps being poorly installed and costing the homeowner a small fortune.
I think I’d also be making a small claim. You can claim up to £10K, they tend not to enable recovery of the full amount so if you can demonstrate their mistakes cost more than that, you could easily get a fair whack off them.
Get on social media and make their life hell with poor reviews etc. If they use it at all, it can have a serious impact on their business. Chances are though, they’ll close that company and start a new one. I found that with my Heat Recovery system. The Directors simply closed one and started a new one.
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Hi Rachel,
UKAS and MCA
MCS Complaints voluntarily contacted UKAS about my case.
UKAS issued a statement saying that:
" Whilst UKAS has an oversight role we have none of the statutory power you would associate with a Regulator."
I read this as " UKAS only provides accreditation for the MCS , NIC and the RECC."
I further read this as “UKAS cannot help.”
Why are the Renewable industry regulators. MCS ,NIC and RECC , “private registered Charities”?
These “regulators” issue income and profit statements annually, and were, themselves, regulated under a " light touch , low bureaucracy regime".
To whom are they accountable?
ian
I guess they are what they are becuase the government doesn’t believe in proper regulation!
It is possible for you to raise a complaint directly with UKAS. The very first job I ever did for them (about 10 years ago) was dealing with a complaint about a heatpump! It’s true that they don’t have the power of a regulator, but they do have the power to withdraw the MCS accreditation of the certification body, which does tend to make them respond.
Regards
Rachel
Hi Willaim,
My installation …Gerald Hoffnung , the Wheelbarrow and the builder comes to mind!
I , like yourself, have, after seven months , been forced into the finer points of Heat Pump installation!
Before starting the "installation " I replaced my original 8 mm microbore pipes and Radiators at a cost of £3000. This upgrade was demanded by all three of the companies asked to quote for the installation.
Again, before installation , my chosen installer demanded the removal of my Gas boiler at a further cost of £922.0. This was demanded “because the installation of a mixing valve was too complicated and expensive”.
The installer started the installation on 1st July but “forgot” to install :
1: Two PRV’s
2: A water expansion tank
3: A water flow sensor.
4: Two supplied Electricity consumption meters.
When confronted with a box containing the missing equipment the installer then fitted the Water flow meter on to the wrong pipe.
The Water flow meter then failed when fitted into the correct pipe but in the wrong position.
The , now damaged, water flow meter was then replace and fitted in the correct position on the correct pipe.
Gerald Hoffnung , the Wheelbarrow and the builder comes to mind!
The Water flow meter still continued to fail when it was discovered that the pipe to which it was fitted contained no water.
A Water expansion vessel and the two PRV’s were now fitted , and the Heat pump started in August.
The Heat pump installation was then halted to “allow the engineer to attend a Samsung installation and maintenance course”.
The installer Maintenance supervisor was then, secretly, fired for “Technical incompetence”.
The Heat pump functioned but was seen to be "Cycling ON and OFF in September and October.
I contacted both Samsung and Telford , the tank manufacturer , who advised fitting a 50 litre Volumising tank both to "smooth out the cycling but also to provide frost protection. Frost protection has proven to be vital in the Scottish climate.
The installer then “discovered” the 50 litre volumising tank which was fitted mid November.
The Heat pump now functions and has survived the intense Scottish frost from 6 th -19th December.
During the nights between 6 and 19th December , , however, the heat pump has blown large clouds of Steam/Water vapour during de-icing while issuing warning messages about excessive energy consumption.
The Samsung, operating in weather compensation mode, was discovered to be set for conditions in the south of England…Not in Scotland.
I hope to greatly reduce the large electricity bill myself !
Advice to the unwary …like William here, Install your Heat pump yourself.
ian
.
Hi Brian,
You have hit the nail squarely on the head!
Before selecting my “installer” I opened the Company register for all of the companies quoting to install my Heat Pump.
I chose the my “installer” by selecting the company with the longest trading time without being Struck OFF too many times.
Many UK companies on the UK GOVT companies register have been struck OFF or "went into voluntary liquidation " only to be resurrected under the same name with one or more character changes in the company name!
My Installer will probably disappear …only to be resurrected with the company name changed from LTD to limited!
Advice: If you want to get a Heat Pump …install it yourself!
ian
Hi Rachel,
In my experience ,the UK government certainly does not believe in proper regulation!
These “regulators” are private companies with Profit and loss accounts hiding under the cloak of “Charities”.
This "light touch Regulation regime of these Charitable regulators " will destroy all credibility in the Renewable industry.
Private industry is doubtless more efficient, but, privatised regulation is not!
ian
Hi William,
Again you have hit at least one nail stop on the head!
The Samsung Manuals are poor, being written and translated by a Technical Author who has himself no experience with the product he is writing about!
The Samsung manuals have also not been updated to reflect the thousands of modifications and variants.
Doubtless Samsung issue up to the minute information about variants and modifications , but , will also doubtless not supply these to the general public.
My “installer” used the YouTube videos in his unsuccessful attempts at repairing my Heat Pump.
The Videos are great if they apply to your particular variant or version , but otherwise dangerous to the unwary or untrained engineer.
I have “translated” the Samsung Field codes , all sixty of them, into an electrical engineered English. Doubtless I will get some wrong!
ian
Hi Ian
Sounds like you are on top of things. Just one thing…
The additional water volume is to enable de-frosting of the coils. Frost protection in terms of preventing damage to the heat pump and/or external pipes needs to be provided by either glycol or anti freeze valves. If you have an extended power cut [or other failure of your outdoor unit] while temperatures are below zero the volumising tank won’t help. I trust you have one or the other mitigation installed.
I assume you are on top of this, but thought I would mention it, just in case.
William
Hi William,
Again , your observations are spot on!.
Samsung consulted the other manufacturer, Telford, about the “nature of the Water Coils within the Hot water tank”.
Because of my cold location , even for the Wast of Scotland, I have topped up with both Alpha -11 antifreeze and Fernox protector.
And yes, I am aware that the antifreeze reduces the Specific heat of water from 4.3 K Joules per litre to circa 4.0 KJ/L.
I am not on top of this , with dropping temperatures the Heat Pump is again consuming too much energy.
My Weather compensation controls are now set to :
201* are set to a High of 15 C with low set to -8C.
202* Water Law 1 ( Heating) is now set to a Low at 30 C with a high at 40C.
203* Water Law 2 ( Heating ) is now also set to a low at 30 C with a high at 40 C.
I have also reduced the minimum Hot Water Temperature, 3021 to 50C and the start Temperature, 3023 set to 8 C, giving a start Hot water Temperature of 42C.
This has reduced the Electricity bill but the house does not meet the Scottish hyperthermia criteria of 21 C in at least one room when the outside temperature is -01 C.
I appreciate, now, that I will have to vastly increase the thermal insulation of my house!
I have a choice, Hypothermia or a huge Electricity bill .
Any advice would be appreciated.
ian