Struggling with performance of Samsung Heat Pump

The water outlet mode is horrible. Disable
it and set to indoor. then you will control the pump
only by thermostat in your wired controller. And don’t forget to set #2093 to 1 - room
temp On/Off only. Don’t set any of the pump setting because it will use WL rules and you are when you were before. I will upload some screens of horrendous cycling when I was in this water law
crap. Now Incan run stable even at +12C. What pump model you have exactly?

And just a remark, weather compensation curve is applied also in thermostat mode. this stupid water law mode is just misleading. As Ian told me it control the pump only by the temperature on water outlet.

So how it works is just stupid and I don’t understand. Let’s say system was switched off and I started the pump in WL mode. Ok, it’s warmer weather but pump does not care it starts to heat water quickly. So soon you will reach your target temperature but pump does not care if you have warm in your house. It continues to heat and if your radiators are not able to output enough heat it will overshoot the target temp and turn off. Okey, pupm is off after minute it will of the water pump. What happens… In 3 minutes my temperature drops from target 35 to 31 and what pump will do ? It starts after damned 3 minutes. And it start’s not low but at 1.5kw input. Great. So what happens next? It will reach the target temp in 5 minutes and the process repeat and you are in a cycling loop where pump cycles 7x an hour. This I will never understand. Charts will follow in other topic.

HP is Samsung AE160MXTPGH + AE260TNWTEH

Last few days I’ve set 24hrs on water law, and 24 hours on thermostat mode… For now, in both cases I have less HP working time (10-12hours), less overal energy consumption (it’s warmer outside), but COP doesn’t go above 1,6. And it’s frustrating… Outside is 18°C through day, and 6-7 at night.
So I’m assuming there is something wrong with my device… Cannot be so low. Tomorrow I should get some news from Samsung…

Working time is not important. Do you have power meter ? You have to check if it is cycling.

Look at these two screens. One is with water law, the other is indoor thermostat.

Water law… no comment:

This is in indoor mode. Continual work… Ignore those cyan spikes, it’s my electric boiler :slight_smile:

Zoom:

Now tell me this is normal…

I guess in thermostat mode you have one of the pump settings enabled - you have to turn them off because in that case water law always kick in before thermostat switch the unit - especially if you have low water temp…

Hi just to add if you are using the stats from the samsung controller they are completely usless mine sometimes says it has run 32 hours in one day and even the Samsung tech has said do not take any notice of then
Best to use an energy monitor on your outdoor unit unless you have all the devices like the people on the openenergymonitor
I have a 20p sq metre 220 year old house and mine on a average 7 degree day will probably use less than 15kwh to heat the house to 20 degrees and heat the hot water to 50
I do not have a buffer and am all radiators with only a garden room with underfloor
I have all emitters open and have adjusted the water law manytimes to get it right
I do use a roomstat as in that mode you get the option to plus or minus the flow temp 5 degrees either way to just adjust to suit.
I allow ot to reach the room stat at which time it shuts down for probably an hour until it drops by 0.4 degrees and then it fires up again
This seems to work great for us

1 Like

I still have big doubts about the COP numbers you’re getting from the controller, based on the daily consumption figures I posted earlier. The real COP number is likely to be above 3. The only way to know for sure is with independent monitoring.

What is exactly that roomstat mode? Because on my samsung I can either select “water law” mode where I can regulate temperature +- 5C but in this mode pump should run constantly because there is no temperature target set so what is this 0.4C you are talking about? On my pump it does not work properly at all since it cycles my pump badly in warm temps.

Or I can run it in “indoor” mode where the pump is controlled either by room thermostat only or room thermostat + weather law combined. in combined mode it works like i’ve mentioned before so it’s useless. SonI have to run in pure thermostat when it works constantly until room temp is reached. it still follows weather curve though.

In wayer law settings the i think its 2091 , 2092 , 2093
2091 is external stat floor which is delta t 5
2092 is external stat fcu which is delta t 10
2093 is the controller as the stat

So i use an external stat on the 2091 and my external stat has a set poi t which turns off 0.2 degrees over what you set it at and switches back on 0.2 degrees under which gives the 0.4 hysteresis

And i have the 2091 set to room signal only so the compressor and pump stay running until the external stat tells it to turn off
This way i have only 4 or 5 cyclea per day as i set the waterlaw so its only just beating the heatloss of the house
I have checked with Samsung tech and they have told me that the compressor on all the time is better than the start stops which is normal for most electric motors

This works the best for me

2 Likes

Hi Michal,

Your Samsung heat pump sounds really simple to understand.

I don’t have one but I have read all the posts.

You have two basic ways to run, with or without room temperature control and you can follow a weather curve if you want, Samsung call it water law.

If you use the room thermostat, either Samsung or third party the heat pump heats until the room reaches the requested temperature and then stops until the room cools down enough, then the heating starts again. The water flows at the temperature determined by the water law settings.

With no room thermostat then it just runs at a set flow temperature, again determined by water law.

If that flow temperature determined by the water law `curve’ is too low then the heat pump works in very short cycles and only stops for the minimum amount of time necessary to start heating again.

With no other changes the extremely short cycling can only be cured by increasing the flow temperature, that is increasing the water law `curve’

I think it really is that simple but I am sure somebody will point out anything that is wrong.

The flow temperature that you need to run at in pure water law mode without short cycles will probably produce more heat than you want at times and overheat the house.

That is because the minimum flow temperature required to prevent short cycling produces more heat than your house loses.

The only way to stop short cycling and keep the house temperature under control is to use the room thermostat or manually control the heat pump by turning it on and off yourself.

Pure water law is designed to run continuously but you need to select a flow temperature that is high enough for your radiators to deliver the heat produced.

Pure water law doesn’t work for you because you won’t run a high enough flow temperature to prevent short cycling but for some other people it may well work, I could live with it if I had to, it is what I do. But you don’t want to do this.

That is it, I don’t think it is any more complicated than this.

As I said, somebody will point out any errors.

Aah, I understood it now. So you are using external thermostat with 0.4C hysteresis. This sound like exactly what I would need because I actually use 2093 - room signal only as well. But this thermostat on Samsung’s wired controller has hysteresis of 1C which is just too much because I can feel this drops since my rooms are getting cold slowly. It’s just too much. If I set I want 22.5C temperature then it heats until 23.5 and then pump will turn off and waiting until id drops to 22.5 to kick back in. Plus in this mode it won’t allow you to modify heating curve by +/-5C. This is possible only in pure water outlet mode which sucks for me.

What thermostat brand/type do you use ? I need to buy one. It is wireless or wired and where it is connected ? Can you modify this hysteresis or it’s fixed to 0.4C ? And do you have floor heating or radiators ? I have radiators but I think it uses dT=5C for me.

What do you have set in Indoor Zone option / Standard Temperature / Water outlet or Indoor ??

Thanks!

Yeah, this is right but you saw my graph if I select “water outlet” - seems this mode is totally useless but in wired controller roomstat mode I can’t change water temperature +/- 5C so seems I need external thermostat for this.

Ah, but what it means that flow temperature is too low ? Didn’t you mean too high ? Why in thermostat mode it also follow this law but do not turn the pump off, instead it runs on lowest input with FAN barely moving. Let’s say it maintains 34C temperature like this - no issues. COP is lower because fan is almost no spinning but at least it won’t switch the pump off and still maintains 34C.

BUT when I switch to water outlet mode (no other changes) it simply switch of the pump once this temperature is reached but do not maintain it. This is what I don’t understand. And then results are that cycling you’ve seen. Why in thermostat control it does not turn the pump off but in water law it does and short cycling. Please answer this if you know.

This is obviously right. At 10C outside I need only 2KW of heat but again in thermometer mode it is able to deliver this heat by slowing down the fan while in pure water outlet it’s not doing this. After it starts a new cycle it will run at 1.5KW input for maybe 2 or 3 minutes producing maybe 4.5KW of heat, then it drops to maybe 1KW for another 3 minutes producing 4KW and then it stops within 6 minutes. Anyone who programmed this logic does really think it’s good algorithm ?

Obviously also in thermostat mode you can run continuously while you set temperature curve to cover your heat loses. But benefit it can turn of when e.g. sun is shining.

I know what you want to say but this Samsung obviously works differently as I’ve explained above. It can deliver 2KW heat but only in thermostat mode for some reason. In water outlet mode not, and I can’t use higher temps because I would cook myself without thermostat.

I wonder if this mode with external thermostat would work better. Seem it would be the best option because:

  1. It has much lower hysteresis of 0.4C. Better comfort and still it ensures it won’t cycle much
  2. With controlling the HP only by external room thermostat (no WL is allowed to turn of the pump) you can still modify your temperature curve by +/- 5C which is exactly what is needed. because when there is colder weather you can increase it and when is hot you may decrease the curve easily. This is not possible to do while you are using Samsung wired controller thermostat as this one will allows you to set only the indoor temperature.

I don’t understand Michal.

If thermostat mode gives you what you want, why don’t you run like this?

Samsung have probably allowed some sort of load compensation in room thermostat mode so that it can modulate lower, it sounds sensible. no?

I don’t know how you measure 2kW of heat but let us assume you are correct.

In pure water law with no room thermostat it is doing exactly what is asked, I would be upset if I asked for flow at 35c and it didn’t do it, if it needs to stop I want it to be as short as possible, I want water flowing at 35c

The problem you have is your house can’t run like this, the heat produced is too much. You want a controlled temperature, even 1c cooling is too much for you.

You won’t get this control in pure water law, I don’t think it would be possible with any heat pump as even though the outdoor temperature is the same it could be cloudy, sunny, windy, whatever.

Samsung have an option for people like me, pure water law where I don’t care if the house gets a bit hot or a bit cold sometimes, I just want the heat pump to run continuously.

You could do this too if you run at a high enough flow temperature, but as you say, you will get too hot and you don’t like it.

So Samsung gave you a way to ensure that you don’t get too hot or too cold, they gave you a room thermostat that ensures that the house temperature varies by no more than 1c

But they were even more thoughtful, they gave you another option if you don’t like their 1c, you can use another thermostat from another manufacturer with tighter control.

It’s perfect, you have everything you need, you can run continuously if you and your house can take it and if not you can control the room temperature using their room thermostat or one from a third party.

You can set a weather curve for your flow temperature in either mode.

It sounds OK to me?

Basically you have two modes, pure water law gives best efficiency and room temperature control gives best comfort. Samsung have given you a choice within the constraints of the minimum electricity consumption of the compressor they have fitted in your heat pump.

What it can’t do is deliver less than about 4kw of heat in pure water law mode but you say it can in room thermostat mode.

In pure water law mode it is trying to deliver as much heat as it can for the electricity it is consuming. That is why it is an option, some people, like me, want that. Others like you prefer comfort so they give you room temperature control.

I don’t use room temperature control as I don’t like the lower efficiency it comes with. This is because, like your heat pump, mine is too powerful when it is warmer outside, it won’t run for very long before the room thermostat turns it off and then I have to wait for two or three hours for it to come back on again, I don’t like that either. My heat pump won’t modulate low enough to run for long periods without the house warming up too much and it certainly won’t do that at an efficiency I like using the room thermostat.

Just use room temperature control, you want really tight control over room temperature as you can really feel 1c change, you’ll never like pure water law I suspect.

I don’t understand why you are persisting with not using room temperature control?

No it’s not like that. But installers who installed told me this water outlet is beeeest mode. So I’ve used it and saw it’s crap. So I’ve started all this discussions. I’ve found only yesterday that roomstat mode works much better. But it has some disadvantages like I’m not able to modify the weather curve directly by setting temperature offset.

But more I simply want to know why water law behaves like this while roomstat mode doesn’t.

Yes. This could be. Probably in weather outlet they focus on efficiency but it won’t be efficient if it cycle like that. I don’t know maybe it’s because it strictly needs to follow this rule. I just don’t know why this outlet temperature drops that fast after pump switch off. I thought that pump will be running for some time so the temperature does not drop this quickly.

But OK, I’ve gave up upon this mode. Now I focus to this external thermostat. This sounds like the best option for me.

I told ya,

  1. I can see in energy stats
  2. My heat loss at that temperature of 10C is 2KW. If it outputs for it would be very warm in the house

So it’s easy and of course logical. If you stop the fan, it can’t pick up too much heat from air and lowering efficiency. If at the same power input fan would be running at 100% you would get over 4KW of heat.

This is kind of cheating to make your pump run continuously.

Right, it’s most probably because they are not have these optimizations to lower the output to bare minimum. Seems this is possible only with room thermostat mode.

I understand but I can it run like this as well but not in water outlet mode. It seems, that minimal power output in pure water law mode without thermostat is ~4KW while in indoor temp mode without WL interlink it’s 2KW.

So seem you are able to consume 4KW of heat all the time no matter of outside temperature but honestly, this would not work for me. At 10C I would have literally a sauna here.

Yes, so only what I want to say is that power output of the pump behaves differently in “water outlet” and “indoor” mode. That’s it… I think only Samsung engineers know why.

Yes, question is why 1C. This is just too much. Either they should use like 0.5 which is used by most external thermostat (on some you can set this to your own liking) or should give a possibility to change it on your own in field settings. It’s unbelievable it’s not there. Lot of useless settings are there but this one not.

Yes, it’s OK now but only because I found it can output 2KW. If it outputs 4KW I would be able to run continuously only up to 2C and lower. This way I can run continuously until around 12 or 15C which is fine. But probably I will change it because efficiency suffers. In warm days I don’t care if pump is stopped for 6h. But definitely I need external thermostat.

You are right. room temp is my only option but I’m not against it. I just need lower hysteresis and I will be fine :wink:

Of course I’m not persisting I only want to find answers why that difference between these two modes. It’s kind of interesting because I think most people lived in impression that min output of this pump is 4KW while obviously it can run much lower at the penalty of lower COP. But it’s possible! However, it can be affected by outdoor temp. I need to observe this.

Hi Michal,

It cannot run at 2kw heat output in pure water law mode because it is not efficient.

Pure water law is an efficiency mode, it runs at a set flow temperature for as long as it can.

This is what it is meant to do, it is what my heat pump does.

If your minimum electricity input is 700w and you want a COP of 5.0 then you need 3,500w of heat.

Giving 2,000w of heat won’t achieve that and that is why it doesn’t do it, it is not a room temperature control, it is control over water flow temperature.

If it can go as low as 2kw of heat output then the electrical input would need to be 400w to achieve a COP of 5.0, it’s clearly not capable of going this low in terms of electrical input.

When the heat pump stops because the returning water is too hot it waits as little time as it needs to to cool down and then starts again. That is what people who use this sort of control want, continuous water at the temperature requested.

Forget what I do in my house, you wouldn’t like it, you have made that clear, but Samsung give you the option to be most efficient if you want to be, I see no problem here.

I can run at less than 4kW of heat if I want to, I could get 3kW or less but as my minimum electricity is 900w I would have to suffer an efficiency of 300% or maybe even less.

That is what you get with heat pumps, there is a point where you cannot go any lower with electricity, so you choose, efficiency or comfort.

Your heat pump won’t work the same in room control as pure water law, it can’t, pure water law is exactly what it says, it just wants to run at the temperature requested.

If you requested the correct temperature it would run in pure water law mode.

In room temperature mode it seems to cut the heat output to control the room temperature at the expense of efficiency.

As for hysteresis, mine is 2c and cannot be adjusted, I would be OK with 1c, it seems quite reasonable, 0.5c above and 0.5c below the set temperature. Mine goes 1.5c above and 0.5c below the set value before heating comes back.

In reality, the room thermostat is a last resort. What is supposed to happen is that the heat pump should modulate its heat output as necessary to maintain the set room temperature, The hysteresis should be pretty much irrelevant most of the time. The trouble for you and me is that we have the wrong heat pumps, at moderate outdoor temperatures they cannot modulate low enough to maintain the room temperature so the upper limit is breached and you have to wait for the temperature to drop.

That is not how they are supposed to work and it explains why the values are higher than expected and not adjustable.

The heat pump manufacturer is not expecting or intending us to run like a gas or oil boiler. They want longer slower heating runs for efficiency and compressor life.

A properly sized and specified heat pump in the right house will run continuously modulating its heat output to maintain a set room temperature, it never gets so hot that the thermostat turns the heat pump off. That is how it is supposed to work.

I don’t recall ever having a room thermostat that ever worked on a hysteresis of 0.5c, but they are clearly available so get one of those.

You have been told why it works like it does, I hope you understand soon.

It is about efficiency, the heat pump wants to produce the most heat possible in pure water law mode, that is what it is for. Pure water law gives the best efficiency and that means 4kw of heat as a minimum.

It is not there to make a 4kW minimum output less for people who don’t want it when their house is hot enough.

That is what room temperature control is for.

Imagine if you purchased this heat pump and just wanted it to run continuously at the best efficiency, you would be upset if when it turned off it didn’t come back on as soon as possible, you wouldn’t want to wait 20 or 30 minutes.

Pure water law is not suitable for you or your house and never will be whatever you did because it involves getting the most heat available, and you don’t always want it.

Hi

I use a EPH Controls thermostat, it was about £50-00 there are options on which to have depending if you want timed on/offs or not. I have the standard one that is just a stat with no timers. I just wind the dial down a couple of degrees at night but guess if you have the timer version which is more expensive you can do this set back with the timer. The dial set unit is battery powered and has a stand if you want to move it around

You need to use 2091 and have set to run signal only

2092 and 2093 as not use

Also 2041 as WL1/ Floor

I have tried indoor zone option on both Indoor and Water Outlet and I cant see that it makes a difference

Then set your waterLaw settings best you can I have mine at Temperature Low -5 and high and water outlet temp 27 and 42 but these are obviously depending on building heat loss so you may need to tweak them but at least the + - 5 degrees gives you the option without going back in the settings and allow you to control how quick it heats up to stat set point

The thermostat is wireless for the setting dial and then the receiver needs 230 volts power to it and then the volt free contact needs to go to room stat connections which are 20 and 22, this will then give the run signal to heat when contact is closed

Hope this helps

John

1 Like

Hi

Forgot to say I am all K2 radiators except my Garden room which is underfloor as its less than 20 years old

If you flow rate isn’t high enough you will see the flow temp slowly rise as the compressor will modulate down to its lowest run speed and if your flow and emitters aren’t enough it cant release the heat into the house

I invested in a Topdon TC001 thermal camera that fits to your mobile to make sure as much of the radiator surface as possible is at between flow temp at the top and 3 or 4 degrees at the bottom

I do not have a buffer I have a low loss header which I just collect the 2 returns to so its basically working as a volumizer. I originally struggled with low flow as mine is a retrofit and was all in 22mm copper and all went up to the airing cupboard on the first floor and then to all the rads on one loop where as now I have split the flow where it comes into the house so that most of the downstairs is on its own loop with a solenoid valve on its flow so when it calls for heating the tank the solenoid closes on it to prevent that getting flow as well as the rest of the radiators fed from the upstairs flow

My flow rate is still to low to get the full 16kw of heat out but its over 30 litres a minute which does seem to satisfy the house even when below zero. For 16kw you require a flow rate of nearly 46 LPM when running on Delta T 5

John

~WRD0001.jpg

Yes, thanks now I understand, this was the link I was missing. Seems in this mode there is some defined efficiency threshold and if it drops bellow it will turn the pump off.

In thermostat mode the pump is able to go as low as possible to hold the set target temperature but reducing fan speed to minimum RPMs and take the efficiency penalty.

This means I can either to accept this lower efficiency and run mostly continuously or I can increase water temperature to get better efficiency and accept little bit less of temperature stability.

I guess for me the best combination would be external thermostat with controlling water temperature on wired samsung thermostat. So in warm weather I can make curve more steep to increase efficiency and where there is cold I can lower it down to run in continuous mode with good efficiency. Got it, we can end this discussion here :slight_smile:

Now only to find a good thermostat which:

  1. is wirelless (866Mhz)
  2. running on a battery
  3. can set hysteresis
  4. is reliable.
  5. works for heat pumps so it’s turn the relay just once when temp is reached and then again when temp drops by given hysteresis.

If anyone knows about such thermostat pls let me know.

Yeah, finally understood it :slight_smile:

Problem is it is not like thet, it’s more lile +0C/TARGET/+1C. So if I request 22C then it heats to 23C and then wait until it drops to 22C. This is pure bullshit. I’ve requested 22 and not 23C. Ok I could lower it to 21C to get 22C max but then it will drops to 21C but hey I’ve requested 22C

I need a thermostat when either I can set my own hysteresis or it works like when I set 22C it heat until 22C and then drops max. 0.5C so the pump start again at 21.5C.

Or even better +/- 0.2 so if I set 22C it heats utnil 22.2 and then waits until 21.8… this would be the best so 0.4 hysteresis bit it’s like +0.2 and -0.2. not sure if there is something like that.

Yes, thanks for you patience :slight_smile:

Shall I use this also in case I have radiators ? Type P+ ? Or it is only for floow heating. I know there are two terminals - one for floor and other for FCU. Water law I use FCU so #2041-2 and then it takes values #2031 and #2032 for water law.

Do you think it this mode target dT=10C ???

Do you think I should switch to @2041-1 also in case I have radiators ???

It has but only in case you set #2093 to 1 - on/off signal only. Otherwise it works like pure water law. The only difference is that if your home is getting to hot the thermostat switch the pump off but for me this is unusable because in warm weather my heat need is much bellow 4KW.

So this is interesting you use K2 radiators with floor (UFHs) settings. Does it work better for you than FCU mode ?

I have currently problem with my flow rate because installers screwed something (I can reach max. 16l/m) so they need to fix that.

I have a IR thermometer si will try to measure this way to get some picture.

My main pipe is 28mm and then this splits into 3x22mm pipes. So I shoud have better flow but first they’ve installed only 25-40 pump while samsung recommends 25-95 and second they’ve used 1" TF filter BUT with 3/4" valves on main pipe so this must have very bad impact on flow.

I have no buffer or volumizer.

Wow, 16KW this is insance, my HP is only 8KW while in reality it’s 14KW only limited at top end. For 8KW I would need 25l/m flow but it was not so cold here to utilize it :slight_smile: Wish I have at least this but 16l/m is really low and installers didn’t care a bit.

You must really have a big house to utilize 16KW of heat. Wow. I can’t barely utilize 5KW. Heat losses around 4.2KW/0C/23C

For information, Michal, the term “hysteresis” isn’t usually used for modern roomstats - it was used for the old mechanical roomstats which were simply “on” or “off”. Modern roomstats typically use TPI control, as described in https://support.salus-tech.com/portal/en/kb/articles/tpi.

So if you go for a third party roomstat, you’ll need to specify one which offers an appropriate cycle time range for your heat pump. I found this article KCS UK which says that variable speed heat pumps typically need 1-2 cycles per hour.

I use a Honeywell T3R which works OK with my 8kW Samsung Gen 7, though I had to reset the cycle time to 3/hour (the minimum available for this stat). The factory setting of 6/hour was fine for my old gas boiler, but provoked unpredictable behaviour in the Samsung MIM controller until I reset it.

Sarah

PS I just noticed a reference in the Gen 7 Installers Manual to a maximum ASHP design cycle rate of 4/hour. I’m speculating that provided your roomstat cycle time is longer than this (e.g. 3/hour) then it should work OK with the MIM controller.

Sarah

TPI is a horrible way to control a heat pump, and can cause unnecessary cycling. OpenTherm would be better, so that the heat pump can make its own decisions about run times based on the room temperature.

I had a Honeywell thermostat which would cycle 3 times per hour, and a heat pump with a minimum runtime of 20 minutes. This meant the call for heat would come just after the heat cycle ends, and it starts up again. I get much better performance and comfort since replacing it with the manufacturers own controller.

2 Likes

Agreed.

TPI was intended to deliver the “minimum temperature variation for a given limitation on cycles per hour”

You’re better served setting a “maximum temperature variation” and accepting the longest cycles that can fit within that with a heat pump.

Checking the configuration of any electronic thermostat is a good point to raise though!

@Timbones
Can you say which heat pumps (if any) are compatible with OpenTherm? (I was under the impression that this communication platform was mainly - albeit increasingly - available only for gas boilers.)
As far as I know, Samsung ASHPs are not compatible, so those owners wishing to incorporate roomstat control may have no option but to select TPI.

@marko How do you set “max temp variation” on Samsung ASHPs? As you know, the Samsung controllers (esp Gen 7) are pretty primitive. Maybe you know of some subtle user setting that would help avoid cycling?
A number of contributors on this and similar threads have discovered that an element of roomstat control (rather than simple weather compensated LWT control) is necessary to manage cycling, so they may have no option but accept a TPI roomstat.)

Sarah