I think you might have confused two English words: seize and freeze. Both relate to something not moving, but their uses are entirely different.
Seize means ‘to take hold of’ something. In an engineering sense, it usually means something that moves normally no longer does so, maybe because of inactivity. In the context of a central heating pump, if it is not used over the summer, then it might not turn at the end of autumn because it had seized. Running it periodically for a few minutes is intended to prevent this from happening.
Freeze is when a liquid turns into a solid as its temperature falls. It is a relatively widely held belief that moving water freezes at a lower temperature than still water - this isn’t true but what is true is that it is much harder to get the whole body of the water to freeze when some is outdoors and some is inside, and it is being moved around by the pump.
Yes, because not only this Samsung driving me nuts but also Goodwe and some others
That I’m not buying anything Samsung again. Simple
What I’m referring to is the weather compensation curve. Basically you can set high temp and low temp (#201*) and corresponding water outlet temperatures (#203*). These are simply two points on the line on the curve… So actually I have #201* set to 10C (I can’t go lower here) and -15C and corresponding target water temps at these outside temperature in #203*.This I have set to 37C and 55C. So now if there is 10C outside the water temperature will be 35C and if there is -15C outside water temp will be 55C.
But simply 35C is to low for my radiators, I would need that in way that it is constant 40C water temperature up to 0C outside so in case there is 15C outside it will be still 40C water temp. If there is 5C outside still 5C… So ideally it would be if I set #201* to 0C but this is not possible. Simply I can’t set a minimal water temperature this heat pump produce.
Or am I missing something ? Thx.
I know what you mean Robert, I simply don’t understand why this is needed and why can’t be turned off. Because, during summer when I did not have DHW tank I simply turned off the pump so there was no “anti-seizing” cycle at all. And if the Samsung thinks it’s really needed (Even when I had electric heating with a pump I’ve never used this during summer and no issues) why they don’t provide a setting to turn this crap off ? I could understand why it is using DHW circuit in summer if you have only DHW active but anyways, why they need to use DHW also during winter ? I know that stealing a heat from DHW is better for safety because they assume there is always some heat to steal but I hate this. A little bit of programming and everyone’s happy
I understand this can happen from time to time, sometimes for a reason that seems trivial later.
Look at it from Samsung’s point of view - and remember I’m a fully trained cynic It costs them nothing. It’s your energy that’s being wasted, not theirs. But it might, just might, prevent a service or warranty claim that would cost them time and money - or more likely, a shed-load of bad publicity because someone has had the heat pump turned off for a long time and it doesn’t work and it’s Samsung’s fault.
It’s been pointed out somewhere on this forum within the last few weeks that the English climate is significantly different to a lot of the rest of the world - in terms of humidity. Maybe Samsung is playing the “cater for worst case” game with their software? I don’t know. What I do believe is everybody in the industry still learning and there’s a long way to go. How quickly everybody will get on top of all the issues, I can’t guess. But I’m quite sure things will improve.
I agree with you, this could be really the reason. But still, keep it like that for ordinary users who have no idea about such things and do not care but why to do this to some more experience users ? 3 years warranty it will not break even without this shit implemented
Samsung is for dummies and ignorant users, sadly. Now I have to live with this
English climate, yes but these pumps are supplied not only to UK right ? I don’t know man. Even their Wifi module kit. What kind of crap is that ? Never seen more useless piece of hardware It does nothing lol, it shows what you can see in remote controller. Knowing this I would never spend money for that.
Maybe you are (though I’m finding it a bit difficult to untangle your English in places). If you want 40degC LWT (thus radiator supply temp approx) all year round, there’s nothing to stop you setting #2031and#2032 to 40degC. But most folk set #2031higher than #2032 (and #2011lower than #2012) to compensate for the extra heat loss in winter. If you could set #2012 to 0degC, the controller would simply supply LWT at your #2032 target whenever the ambient was above 0degC, which you would want only if your heat loss at 0degC was the same as your heat loss at 10degC or more - not normally the case, I think…
Thanks for confirming - I’ve long suspected that I was stupid …
Wait a moment, I think there is not a common understanding here so I would try to explain with images since it seems my English sucks
For my system the system is running best with water outlet temperature 40C at 0C outside. And in general above 40C. Bellow efficiently is not good because radiators are not able to dissipate the heat efficiently. So my goal would be never run lower than 40C flow temp no matter if it’s cold or hot outside. Remember I have FCUs so 202* is out of scope for me.
So this is my starting point. Then at -15C outside I need a water temperature 55C. So, let’s draw this on graph…
So to achieve 40C water temperature at 0C and 55C at -15C then I have to set #2031 to 30C because #2011 won’t allow me to set lower outside temperature than 10C. But this mean where there will be 10C outside the pump will output water only 30C which is absolutely inefficient for me…
Do you know what I mean now ? Ideally I need this but because controls are simply stupid it’s not possible.
This would be possible only in case I can set #2011 to 0C. So the configuration would be as follows:
#2011 (low) = 0C #2012 (high) = -15C
#2031 (low) = 40C #2032 (high) = 55C
If you will tell me it’s possible I will apologize to call Samsung controls stupid I’m quite of a technician so I know how to set up thing but I was simply not able to do this with this pump.
That is what Samsung thinks not that you or me are stupid Problem is that before buy you will simply not know it and after installation is not possible to return the unit so it’s like buying a pig in a poke. Lot of bullshit marketing they are experts though.
Ah now I understand what you are trying to do, @Michal_S.
What I don’t understand is why you want your radiators at 40degC at high outside temperatures - if at 40degC your radiators keep your house warm at 0degC outside, they should not need to be still at 40degC when it’s 10degC outside.
When you say…
…in what way is 30degC LWT “absolutely inefficient”? On the contrary, a lower LWT is normally associated with a better CoP, so really you should be pleased with your Samsung .
If your heatpump is too big for the emitters, such that they have to run at 40° to keep up, then it will be necessary to accept some cycling. While not the ideal constant running we all strive for, cycling does not necessarily mean worse performance.
If you have radiators and indoor temperature set to 23C then with 30C flow temp heat exchange is insufficient causing the pump to run at minimal power input, minimal FAN RPM, minimal flow speed which is very inefficient. You know that this pump is oversized. It’s not an 8KW unit. So it is running for a long time with poor efficiency. inlet/outlet temps differences are already minimal and the circulation pump can’t go slower. But because of thermostat it will keep running and running. For this reason you can see those crazy power spikes anywhere from 600 to 900W. It simply can’t modulate properly. If I would have 100l buffer tank it would definitely help but sadly I don’t have one.
So for me when there is 10C outside to run flow temp at 40 is more effective than running it at 30C flow temp. First it’s not possible and the water temp will be always higher than this and at the same time it will be verry ineffective because radiators are barely warm and they can’t give heat to the room. dT = 10C in this case between flow and indoor temp.
Pump will still be running at lowest settings. I could disable thermostat and use water law but cycling would be way to crazy without buffer tank so this is not an option.
In this case for me it would be better to run 40C so while it will cycle more, it will heat the room faster with better efficiency. I accept some cycling of course.
Hi Tim, that’s the problem that there isn’t. At least I haven’t found one.
For outside temperature bellow 5C all is fine. I have water set to 37C at 5C and 55C and -15C but problem is that then at 10C or more outside you have flow temp around 32C or less. Simply with two points on weather curve I can’t set this. If samsung would allow to set flow temps for outside temps bellow 10C it would be fine but it’s blocked for some reason and I can’t select less than 10C here. And if I set 37C@10C then at 0C I will have 47C flow which is too much.
Normally I would set it like this e.g
#2011 (low) = 5C #2012 (high) = -15C
#2031 (low) = 37C #2032 (high) = 55C
Then the lowest flow temp maintained by pump would be 37C and it does not matter if it is 5C outside or 15C outside… Sadly, not possible.
Admittedly the two-point WC “curve” is a Samsung limitation (though I gather that most cheap ASHP controllers do the same).
The other thing that you could do (though it would be a compromise) is to lower the gradient of the WC line by dropping your #2031 setting by a few degC and increasing your #2012 setting by a few degC. This could still pass through 40degC at 0degC, and thus lessen the adverse effects you see at high outside temperatures, but would mean that you’d need a little supplemental heating on the coldest days (how often does your outside temperature go below -10degC? If only for a few hours per year, switch on a fan heater in your critical room(s) or put on another layer of clothes).
Finally, don’t forget that you can very easily adjust your WC line up or down by up to 5degC at the remote controller (or via your MIM-B13N) on a day-to-day (or even hour-to-hour) basis. I occasionally resort to this if cold ambient temperatures coincide with a strong easterly wind (which increases heat loss from my rather exposed living room disproportionately).
Exactly, but if they wouldn’t stupidly limit #2011 to +10C and above then it would solve all my issues and I could set this to 5 or even 0 to get minimum flow temperature.
Or as Tim suggested another setting where you can set minimal flow temperature explicitly but this is not there or at least I haven’t found it.
Also missing room temperature thermostat hysteresis is really for dummies or Samsung think maybe all users are dummy I don’t know. But 1C hysteresis is simply too much for comfort levels if thermostat is in use. if its +0.5/-0.5 I could live with it but +0C/-1C is crazy. Why.
So you know now why I don’t like this pump. But for others it might works, it always depends on setup.
Also thing they proclaim this as 8kW heat pump is misleading because in fact it’s 14kW…
Ton of bullshit marketing to be honest. Another thing. DHW. You can’t go higher than 55C without booster heater. Why if they claim this is HT pump and can go as high as 70C outlet water.
Another thing is their MODBUS/RS485 communication is hidden. You have few registers and they won’t reveal others. Maybe there is a setting to modify hysteresis but you simply won’t find it.
And there are lot of other stuff I don’t won’t to name. So now you might consider me as picky but damn, these is basic stuff. But yes, I admit I’m very picky in these things
But back to your post. Yeah, I’ve already lowered the gradient but as you have said is a compromise since the colder it gets the colder the house will be so then I would need to push up the WC on remote controller but temperature changes all the time and is inconvenient.
My point is this is super easy to implement that everyone is happy and which should be a standard in controlling. But Samsung is not doing it. I believe other brands such daikin or bigger names has such things implemented and not limit settings this way.
Btw, if I would know the modbus register for setting #2031 I would set it to my liking and I know this would work because via modbus you can set anything but I simply don’t know the address
If you have access to modbus control, why not change to water outlet mode and control LWT through modbus ie construct your own weather compensation curve as others have done?
Hi Mike. That’s a pragmatic suggestion, and it might be appropriate for a handful of super-users in the rarified atmosphere of this place (who might also have the skills to build themselves a heatpump from scratch too), but IMO the point is that it is the mainstream manufacturers who have the resources (and dare I say also the responsibility) to develop a user interface that “just works” for millions of commonplace installations in a post fossil fuel heating era.
Why haven’t manufacturers made controllers for their heat pumps that iteratively compute the optimum operating settings appropriate for the emitters and environment they are connected to - all without input from users?
To stretch the analogy, at a time when autonomous vehicles are being developed, why are we still requiring people to walk in front of cars waving a red flag?
Because I want to have it autonomous. Honestly I had it like that for a while. I don’t want it to rely on external software since few time already happened that home assistant died and then all was f*** up. I have thermostat controlled over HA and it simply did not turn on the pump.
It’s so easy to do and I simply can’t to do such stupid thing because engineers at Samsung decided to limit #2011 to 10C and you can’t go lower. What is worse NASA protocol does not work properly for this pump as as stated above. I can read #10** fields but not #20** which makes no sense but it is like it is… I’ve added those message numbers to 7000 register but no luck. Either it showed 0 or some bullshit numbers… Welp, hard life of a geek
I wonder this as well. They make it dummy af maybe for a reason. Honestly, not too many users have idea how heat pump works but just because of this they should implement some clever logic into it. I believe brands like IVT or Daikin and other has this controlling login on much higher level. I believe in the future we will see AI integrated and you only tell the pump what to do and it will behave like that. At the other hand can be also a bit dangerous
Just a little update. It’s strange but I was able to write 0x4255 message (WL ambient temp min) as needed. Funny stuff is I can’t read it or at least the value is not refreshing for some reason. However I can see it in remote controller FSV setting. Thanks @SarahH, you’ve helped me to tune it more to my likings so now I could be more happier with the pump
If I’d only find a setting to change room stat hysteresis I would blow up with joy but don’t think it’s possible.
It costs them nothing. It’s your energy that’s being wasted, not theirs. But it might, just might, prevent a service or warranty claim that would cost them time and money - or more likely, a shed-load of bad publicity because someone has had the heat pump turned off for a long time and it doesn’t work and it’s Samsung’s fault.
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