Samsung Gen 6 water law - compressor stops always for 3 minutes no matter what

Hardware Heatpump
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I believe it’s the setting #1032 - Minimal water outlet temperature for heating in remote controller settings field values. I’ve set this to 37C but it’s completely ignored by the pump and it still works by weather compensation curve. There I had 30C LWT for 15C outside temp. Really don’t understand. Also this limitation is killing me. Why max. is 37 ? Why it won’t allow me to set 45 here ? Stupid, stupid, stupid.

@SarahH Yeah, only difference you have 1 phase and I have 3-phases. But I believe min compressor input should be the same. I guess it vary on outside temperature. In colder temps I guess min output is bigger.

For this #2091 what thermostat do you use and how it is connected to the unit? It’s connected to MIM-E03CN board or to the wired controller ? I would like to use maybe also external thermostat because I don’t like 1C hysteresis of MRW-WW10N. I need more like 0.5C.

Well, you don’t have problem because you don’t user “Water law” mode. In this mode you would probably have at higher outdoor temps and maybe not. What I don’t understand why I have this cycling in water law mode and not in roomstat controlled mode. Makes no sense. It still uses the weather compensation curve set and tries to run all the time. If it sees the heat output is too much at given power it tries to lower the input to low as possible and also slowdown the fan dramatically. So it’s a tradeoff between efficiency and continuous run. I was really surprised but it make sense since if there is hot outside and you don’t need too much heat the fan is almost s topped and refrigerant take heat much less efficiently but benefit is it can still output 2KW. I really believe this behavior is present only above specific outdoor temperature. I’d guess 10C. But still need to observe this behavior.

Seems everyone is using different heating strategies and these pump are extremely complicated in this sense. Electric boiler you will just run, set TRVs and you are good to go. It’s most comfort heating system, the only drawback is it’s least efficient :slight_smile:

And yeah, this unit is stupid unfortunately. It performs well, but it’s stupid in terms of controlling. Really 10 is good for south Korea but I don’t understand why we cannot reflash the firmware and change this, or hysteresis…

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That is the setting I thought would “override” the curve. :frowning:

Can you check firmware on the unit compared with current available firmware?

On the Gen6 the firmware was not finished before the product was launched. The PWM functionality only came with a later release for example. Perhaps there is an update to have this work better?

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Correct Michal. #1031/2 only apply if you deselect Water Law (i.e. you select Water Outlet Temp on Remote Controller option). And you cannot deselect Water Law if you have a remote (3rd party) roomstat. These points are not covered in the User Manual - I had to speak to Samsung UK Tech Helpline to appreciate them.

My roomstat is a Honeywell T3R (wireless) installed in the living room. This is a “smart” stat, which was set up for my old gas boiler. I had to reprogramme it because it was confusing the Samsung controller (MIM-E03EN) with too-frequent signals. (I suspect that the rapid cycling some folk see with Samsung ASHPs may be explained by a similar effect.)

But you are wrong to say that I don’t use “Water Law” mode - all morning Water Law controls my LWT, and it isn’t till lunchtime that my living room reaches roomstat setpoint and takes over LWT control from Water Law.

Talking of rule breaking, I have a buffer tank installed - which everybody discourages - but I suspect that it helps reduce the tendency to cycling in my system, even at the cost of running a second pump for CH. I don’t plan to change things before I have more evidence to the contrary.

Sarah

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Yeah I could check, however I don’t know if it’s written somewhere publicly. Also to rewrite it you would need some eprom controller I guess.

I yes, I guess Marko noted that you should not use these controllers since are made for gas boilers and cause issues to “modern” systems. Rapid cycling of what ? The pump? What I have in water law at higher temps ? It’s really unbelievable this logic, it always stops only for 3 minutes. 3 stupid minutes. Also that pump didn’t run as stated in manual.They say 3 minutes off and 7 min run ? I guess it is because the pump wants to meassure water temperature and if it drops to much it will start the pump ? Settings 3 of the pump ??

I have a feeling this is somehow broken because it works for me in a way that after it switch off pump is running maybe for a minute and it stops… and then the pump start after another 2 minutes…

I maybe didn’t make myself clear. I’m talkin about “water outlet” mode and auto settings. This is in Indoor Zone Option / Standard temperature / Water outlet. In water outlet mode it behaves bad with cycling. In indoor mode is OK but the hysteresis is 1C and I have to wait for drop.

So yeah I also user weather compensation curve (don’t like this stupid term water law) on “indoor” settings. Here all is fine. But this “water outlet” is doing these issues.

I focus more on constant pump run so I get as best temperature comfort I can get. Seems this is possible in indoor mode to set temp curve properly. Will play with this. It will have lower scope in warmer conditions above 10C but does really 1 COP point matter ? At 10C or 15C there is no big heat consumption so maybe it’s worth the comfort.

What hysteresis has this old Honeywell controller ?

This buffer tanks it interesting. Marko says it’s good, Matt said it’s not. Now I think like it can be beneficial especially with systems with lower water amount in the system. And as you said it definitely must help with frequency of cycling. At the other hand seems in indoor mode I can run 24/7 so I don’t know. I believe the higher LTW the better efficiency of buffer tank if you have good insulation. Pump can work on higher input and producing better COP. How many liters buffer do you have and how it’s connected ? 2 pipes ? 4 pipes ?

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Briefly Michal,

  1. I think @marko hates buffer tanks more than most :wink:

  2. My buffer tank (4-pipe) is 50 litres, primary circulation 25-30 litre/min, secondary circulation about half that (I don’t have flowmeter so can only estimate from heat balance on buffer tank temps). That’s another rule broken…

Sarah

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so that sounds to me like you’ve got it stable and found the floor for your system. 2000W output is good. 600W input is good . less about the COP more about low energy input. how are you measuring it though ? the 4000W thats been quoted as a “minimum” is based on what other people have achieved, there is no spec number.

For comparison, I have the 16kwGen6 , for the last 10 hours its been running steadily at 3700-4000W output, 800-900w input, at 35C water temp. If I lowered the WT, the output would drop but the input would not, as this is the lowest level of power input that my system will run at. fortunately 4000W is only just higher than my heat loss at this air temp (10C).

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this is the way to make it work. keep it running constantly in indoor temp mode. focus on making small tweaks to the weather comp values (annoys me people call it curve, its not, its a line) and to the radiator balance that to keep the rooms at the right temp. its a long iterative process.

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“water outlet” mode is a fundamentally odd setting and I have no clue why its the default. Its only control input is the water temperature in the outdoor unit. there’s another person on here with the same thing. the outdoor water cools a bit (quickly, its outside), so then it runs (but there’s no meaningful heat demand, so not for long), repeat forever… :frowning:
Unless you have a 3rd party thermostat as well, or perhaps a modbus controller , I don’t see any application for this mode.

normally when someone says “buffer” on this forum it means 4 pipes. If they say “volumiser” it means 2 pipes and inline (directly part of the radiator circuit). diagrams on pages1 and 2 respectively of this. 4 pipe method always costs some efficiency because its essentially impossible to get the same WT on each side (always some mixing). 2 pipe method does not cost any mixing efficiency and still brings benefit in terms of increasing system volume to dampen cycling. If you have a 4 pipe buffer, think about replumbing it as 2 pipe.

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Hi Ian,

I am no heating engineer and I contribute not to influence people but just because I find the subject fascinating.

Whilst I understand the value of adding volume to a heating system wouldn’t it be better to do this with increased radiator capacity?

I see this as adding useful value in terms of being able to run at lower flow temperatures.

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UPDATE: Please ignore, Ian explained to me that buffer and volumizer are 2 different things and Marko really don’t like buffers then :slight_smile:

Are you sure? Because I had a quite long discussion with @marko and he definitelly recommends buffer tank/volumizer.

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So this honeywell is connected to MIM-E03EN ? it has wifi temperature sensor or how it works exactly ?

Yes, I was also surprised to see it working like this. It was around 12C outside and it was running 33C water temperature. My radiators were almost cold. I calculated it by my heat loses and confirmed by the Samsung’s energy monitor in wired controller. And absolutely match with my calculated heat loss at 12C which is around 2.4KW. At 0C I have 4.2 - 4.4KW. My temperature indoors was stable so it can’t provide more than 2 - 2.5KW heat. Really interesting but note, this is only in “indoor” mode. If I switch to “water outlet” it is doing all these crazy things with cycling. I need to observe this more though.

Maybe gen7 works differently ? I don’t know but what was clear wat that FAN in outdoor unit spined very, very slow. I could not even hear it. The air flow was very weak. But still it generated energy. Very interesting. We will have couple of warm days this week so need to closely observe.

With these values I run this morning but only at 2100W or so. Your COP much better but no way my radiators (P+) would be able to output 4KW at 35C water temperature.

So what do you do with the heat you have more ? Open windows or what ? It is really interesting that with these heat pumps is good to heat to heavens so to say (guess it’s not proper meaning in English but I think you know what I mean. Simply heat the room with a windows open) to get better efficiency.

Yeah probably, but the problem is I’m getting low scop if running water at 33C. I’m getting only COP3. Paradoxically, if I’d increase the water temperature to 40C I would get much better COP. Around 4 or so… so I don’t know, therefore I was thinking I would to set the curve that from 0C and above it always user LWT40 and 0C and bellow weather compensation. BUT, this is not possible with this dummy unit. I can’t confiugre it like that :frowning: So yes, stability is better but the COP is lower. So I don’t know. You are right with the line vs curve but I’d better see you can set a curve here :slight_smile:

Yes, this should be water temperature controlled by a curve you set (well, line :)). It just works very strangle as I pointed but funny fact is this is Samsung’s default setting. So then you are not setting the room temperature on wired controller but water offset. By default is 0.0. Now if you have cold in a house you will increase it and the water temp raises by 1C from whatever is actually given by the heating curve. And if it’s too hot you will lower it like -1.0. It only works strange way and it was cycling for me. It looked like some wether temperature made the rules and no matter what it had to maintain dT and flow at some optimal power input. I really don’t know, it will take me much more time to understand this but I guess I will be able to do so :slight_smile:

So most of people are running in “indoor” mode which indeed is not causing any issues to me (besides lower COP at warmer temps). But it is the “water outlet” indoor zone option which behaves strange. So sorry for confusion at the beginning.

Yes exactly, it seems this is behavior of mine but what bullshit is this ? The pump is even not running properly in this mode so the outside temp drops quickly. I can’t get this mode for now but as I said it’s default. I guess in this mode it does not matter what the indoor temp is, you can’t even set target for indoor temp. Really weird. It heats infinitely until there is low head demand and pump can’t deliver it. Weird.

Ah thanks, this was mine confusion. So in that case marko indeed can be against buffers :slight_smile: I was thinking about volumizer then. At the moment I have nothing! Plumbers did not even suggest it to me…

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I would be interested in this as well. I think you can do that problem is it will be more expensive. At the other hand can help with COP.

But in my case change from P+ to K2 does not make a change in terms of volume. To get a real benefit I would have to switch for K3 and this would be really expensive.

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Guys, have a look at specs of mine pump here.

Today, I had a COP3 at 12C at 35C LWT. This is too low, I would have much better COP on 50C LWT! It’s because my radiators are small for this low output temperature. I would need to run it at 45C ideally up to 0C so get better COPs. Since winters are weak now I think it would make sense to flaten a curve and simply run all the time at minum 45C and probably 55 at -20C. I don’t know, I’m frustrated :slight_smile:

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Something like this?

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Yes, thermostat kicks in so this won’t be 24/7 run but it could help with efficiency. Thoughts ?

Or this ?

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I really hate that stupid Samsung has limited max. and min. outdoor temperatures to -20 and 10. Crazy… Why not -25 and 0 ??? Would solve all my issues.

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But you never mention cost.

Just a solution.

If you don’t want to or can’t pay for it then that is another matter.

Big radiators worked for me.

It is just barrier after barrier for you.

You want a solution, it may well cost.

Or just get another heat pump with a wider range of operation, again a cost but maybe the cheapest way to get what you want.

It will cost, but I would also recommend proper accurate monitoring.

Basing your COP/heat production on your heat loss is just silly in my opinion, it has no meaning and can’t be relied upon.

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Well, it needs to be rentable or ?

Already I have a solution, we have found that the issue is in regulation by “water outlet”. I don’t know what is this shit but does work strange an cycling. In “indoor thermostat” mode all works fine and no cycling even with my rads but COP suffer. So benefit of bigger radiators is only in better COP. At the end you can can have better COP with your big rads that’s for sure but we have to consider costs now. If I need 12MW per year, you would have with COP 5 2400MW. Me with 3.5 let’s say 3500. So roughly 1MW per year saved. Now electricity costs here is 0.15 eur/kw so this is 165 eur savings each year. So depending of electricity price in next years it can return in 10 to 20 years when switching to K3 ? I don’t know…

What is silly on my my heat loss exactly ?

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How do you calculate your COP Michal?

My COP comes from certified heat and electricity meters.

How do you calculate heat produced, where does the data come from?

If you have a solution then that is great, I am really happy that you have solved your problem. I see that your COP suffers but that is your cheapest option by the sounds of things.

Best just to suffer the reduced COP and save your money seeing as the extra electricity cost is so little.

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Hi Michal,

What made you choose a Samsung heat pump?

I wanted a Vaillant but couldn’t find an installer that would fit where I live.

I had to settle for a Daikin and I am paying the price.

My heat pump will be swapped for another Daikin in two weeks time.

If that doesn’t work properly then I will just go and buy a Vaillant and solve all my problems.

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In Samsung wired controller you may check power which was consumed and the power generated. I admit that this is maybe not very precise but no idea how much it is off from certified heat meter. I’m debating to install emonHP level 3 bundle but let’s see. In any case.

I have Shelly 3EM power monitor so I know how much energy the pump really consumed. This is in pair with Samsung controller so I guess this number is +/- precise. Then I know the average temperature per day and heat loss of my house at given temp (of course on cloudy days without sun) so I can estimate how much heat I need. It’s not very precise but estimation. But it +/- match.

What I clearly see with my pump today that it was able to generate low heat at 12C outside temperature an power input of 600-700W. With COP of 3 this is around 2KW which again match with energy monitoring in Samsung controller so I don’t have a reason not to trust it. Since FAN was running really slow air barely flowed through the fins so refrigerant picked only low amount of heat so it make sense that by reducing FAN speed of the indoor unit, this pump can run at pretty low power output at COP=3. Not that bad so to say. If it run the fan at full speed it would produce maybe these 4KW at 7000W. Makes sense…

So yes, currently COP suffers but only a temps over +10C when I want to run my pump constantly on low speed. Would be better for me if I increase water temp so my radiators output 4-5KW so it is more efficient. But such behavior is hard to set on this pump. Ideal for me would be if it runs at 40C water from 0 and higher and according weather compensation under 0C.

Yes for now electricity is cheap because government fixed them for 2 years but I expect these prices will double the next year.

Well, why… This is good question. The top priority for me was noise. I wanted to have a quiet unit and this has certificate so it was expected to running as quiet as possible. And indeed, this is true. It’s very silent even at max. speed.

The 2nd requirement was it should be at least 7KW to cover my heat loss at -15C. This 8KW fits perfect. (that time I didn’t know it is is reality a 14KW unit only limited at top). But OK, not that a big deal now if I can run it without issues at low water temps and it does not cycle.

Third I liked the design and construction. It feels really premium and is heavy as hell for 8KW unit. So lot of metal in there and it’s huge.

Until now I’ve thought that Daikin is top brand in air-conditioning together with Mitsubishi. It’s a Japanese brand at the end so I’m surprised to hear you are not satisfied with it. What exactly is the issue? Was it too big for your house ?

To be honest, I gave it install to a company with good reputation. One of the biggest here and they screwed what they could so going to fix now. Those installers said it install it the first time. To be honest just buy Vaillant and install it yourself. It’s very simple to change Monoblock if you already have one. But you will see but I can’t believe Daikin is a bad brand.

Midea, Inverter, Aux, those are cheap units, but Daikin ?

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Daikin are not Japanese, they are Czech if I am correct?

You can’t guess COP, even an educated guess, you could be and probably are a long way out. Guessing, which is what you are doing is what I meant by silly.

In the early days with smallish radiators I would have thought my COP was fantastic, I would have been completely wrong without the heat and electricity meters.

My Daikin is quiet, much quieter then they said.

That is because they quote the same noise for all of their models.

And that was my problem, noise and the proximity of neighbours.

I wish I had a Vaillant.

This Daikin has ruined my life for the last four months!

It is 9kW but in the same way your Samsung is a larger heat pump so is this, it is really a 16kW heat pump and I live in a small house. It is just too much, I never need more than the minimum output, even in the coldest we have had this winter. It has to go.

This Daikin I have is well made I think, big and very heavy, nearly 200kg, but just too much for this house.

The heat and electricity meters were the best money I spent, I know for sure how my heat pump is performing and how to make it better.

Electricity prices are the unknown.

I have a lot of solar panels and batteries so don’t care so much as long as I get paid for my exported electricity at a good rate.

I pay nothing for electricity each year, my export payments exceed my import costs and as long as that continues I don’t care. That is why I can afford to experiment with opening windows and boiling!

Of course, it is still my money but not from my salary so makes a difference to me, if I was smarter I would be more careful.

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Nooo, Daikin is Japanese brand lol and those are considered as one of the best units for cooling and heating on the market.

You can, really. Not very scientifically but you can. Simply if I would deliver heat at 12C at 4KW my house would overheat rapidly. And I’m not guessing them, I’m reading them from pump controlling board.

This is not my case, I simply know that I can’t have COP 4 at 0C with these radiators. And now I can see it from electricity consumption. So definitely not a blin guess as I said.

Don’t understand. Si it is much quiet than on paper and this was your problem - the noise ?

To be hones, I don’t think Vailant is any better. There are more focused on gas and electric boilers - at least in my country. With pump they’ve started later. I can’t imagine how this can be better than Daikin Altherma which is considered one of the best, expensive like shit unit.

Can you please state the exact type of your Daikin HP ? When did you buy it ? 4 months ago ?? I can’t believe this. It’s really that bad ? Then I’m pretty I’ve bought this Samsung because I wanted Daikin at first but way too expensive.

For you house it really can be big but I have almost 2x bigger house and worse insulation than you so for me anything lower than 8KW would be to small. To be honest I don’t if you did check capacity data of units with smaller compressor. They states it’s 8KW unit but it’s at -2C outside temperature. At -15C they are able to deliver only 5-6KW so be carefully here. I would better have lower COP then suffer when cold strikes. As I said anything lower than 8KW would be too small for me.

But still I don’t understand your problem. You said you can run 24/7 all the time and obviously you have a good COP so what’s the problem here ?

Daikin does not have its own energy monitoring ? Can’t believe that.

You don’t pay for electricity ? How it’s possible ? In winter performance of solar panels is poor in general… Mind you elaborate ?

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The heat pump is too big.

I need just over 4kW at worst.

The 9kW puts out 4kW all of the time, it is too much.

I don’t think any other explanation is required!

We had a government grant here, the installer says what i must have based on the heat loss they calculated.

They calculated 7.5kW, it’s 4kW as I told them. They have to replace it with more suitable unit.

It will be replaced with an 8kw Daikin, if I am right I don’t expect to be discussing COPs of 4 or 5.

I don’t expect any trouble with the 8kW, it is more than enough for this house.

If I need to I can shut the conservatory and then my heat loss is only 3kW at -4c, I am sure we will be OK.

I currently have an EDLA09E3V3 installed in June 2023.

Daikin does report energy consumption and heat produced but there are two problems. It is not very granular, it is difficult if not impossible to diagnose issues.

The second problem is that the measurements are not guaranteed to be accurate, certified heat and electricity meters are accurate and the only true way to measure performance, anything else is unreliable. This is my opinion and others may not agree but I don’t care, I want to know with absolute certainty, anything else for me is guessing, it may be educated or informed guessing but nothing beats accurate measurement.

I can run continuously as you have seen.

There are things you don’t know though, the flow temperature rises because I allow it to, I can stop that, I would get less heat though. I let it increase by setting an overshoot of 4c on the set flow temperature. It maintains the biggest dT it can and produces more heat for the same electricity.

I am a petty and sad man who likes to see a good COP, I could have less heat and a more comfortable life at less COP, but I choose not to.

My problem is that I could do all of this more efficiently, more comfortably and with less electricity than I currently do.

For all those reasons this heat pump needs to go, I will get the same result for half the electricity with the 8kW.

The 8kW turns down to about 280w of electricity and for this I will get 2,000w of heat, much better than the 900w of electricity and 4,000w of heat I get now.

Also, as I run from batteries most of the time, less electricity consumption helps a lot, 600w doesn’t sound like much but it can often be the difference between importing or remaining 100% on batteries.

I pay nothing for electricity as I export far more than I import.

I get paid 15p to 20p per kWh of export and pay about 20p per kWh on average for what I import.

I export more than 6,000kWh of electricity a year which gives me about £1,200 of income.

When the sun doesn’t shine enough I have to buy electricity but the cost in a year is less than the £1,200 I get paid.

Therefore I pay nothing each year.

I haven’t worked out the exact figures but I am still £700 in credit with my supplier. I expect one more bill of about £150 in a weeks time and then most of my electricity comes from the sun.

The heat pump either runs from the sun or my batteries. Even if there is a less sunny day we are at the point where my batteries can cover a couple of days and I will get it back from the sun. I expect to import very little by the end of the month.

My profit for the year from solar panels should be £450 to £500. With a heat pump that uses between 50% and 70% of what I use now this should become even more comfortable. I hope I never buy electricity again in the course of a whole year.

In the summer I export around 1,500kWh in the best months, some days I generate over 80kWh of electricity.

And before you or anybody else wants to point it out, I do know that I had to buy the solar panels and batteries, not something I am going to forget for a while!