New Daikin Altherma 3 Installation - Monitoring

Hardware Heatpump
10

Hi Matt,

Not sure if you solved this.

You can go in to the MMI controller and go into information which gives all of the energy data.
Daily, Weekly, Monthly and Annualy, from memory it will have total sum of input, output, heating and hot water.
The COP/SCOP would be a division of the figures, it doesn’t give you an actual COP number on screen.

Equally, if you have the Onecta app installed with the wireless “SD card” part code BRP069A78 you can view energy data on your mobile device however I think it gives similar data to that on the MMI…

Cheers
Ant

11

Hi Ant,

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, I have all of that and can see all the information you describe.

I am sure, for most people, it will be enough information.

But it is limited, it’s not very granular, I think that is the word, basically it only reports in whole kWh.

I have fitted a ct clamp monitor on the power supply to the heat pump and I can now see what it actually uses which is useful.

The MMI and the app actually report daily usage as 1.0 kWh but it never actually uses the decimal point.

I know the information is in the heat pump and available to be extracted and I am part way through setting up espaltherma but had some problems with sandisk usb drives before I went on holiday and I was waiting for my M5StickC to arrive.

I now have all of this and some different usb memory sticks so will have another go.

Ideally I would like Octopus to fit the Openenergy system for me but I am still waiting for a reply from them on this.

I know it’s all a bit unnecessary but having come so far will my solar panels and battery storage I would like to complete the job, if you know what I mean.

Matthew.

12

Right im with you, it is pretty limited in information at the moment.

If you have Madoka and solar PV it might be worth doing some research on their HEMS system, (I think its Daikin HEMS), it ties in the solar PV and heat pump into the Onecta App.

I dont think it gives you the indepth information you require but it does tie everything together so you can do hot water and room buffering (so I am led to believe) and gives you information on what energy is going where and when (not sure if battery is included or in development)

I’m not sure what stage they are at with the UK but I have seen that it may be available now or any time now.

https://www.daikin-up.eu/

Cheers
Ant

13

Hi Ant,

Thank you for the information, it’s very helpful, I will have a look.

I am really happy with my Givenergy system, it works really well. I have four solar arrays, one with Enphase micro inverters and the other three have Growatt inverters and Tigo optimisers on every panel, mainly so I can see what is going on with each panel, I have some but minimal shading issues.

I have 13.3 kw of solar panels and generate around 12,000 kWh per annum and I have 38 kwh of usable battery storage.

I already have enough in my Octopus account to pay for the winter electricity use and will build more before the winter comes.

Leaving aside my capital costs I pay nothing each year for energy, I actually have a small income from it.

I would like to document my system and ideas in some way, maybe with a youtube channel. I don’t want it to be as in depth as some people go but I feel I need more than I currently have in terms of what the heat pump costs to run and its efficiency.

We moved to this house 2 years ago and it had some panels and I have added to it extensively and I feel compelled to share with people what is possible.

I’m no genius but I am quite proud of what we have achieved this year and my story might help and inspire others to do something similar.

I think that reducing our reliance on fossil fuels is a good thing and we need more positive stories around heat pumps and electric vehicles. there is a lot of negativity coming from people with no actual experience of this technology, basically people perpetuating untruths with no relevant evidence to back it up.

Matthew.

4 Likes
14

Hi Matt

Very interesting set of posts! I’ve also had exactly the same gear installed by Octopus, in May, and lots of K2/K3 rads to keep the flow temp low :-). I also contacted them about a post-install of more effective monitoring gear, but was told they don’t do that. Obviously, if you here otherwise, I’d like know. I’m loath to modify anything at this point because of the workmanship warranty, but I am acquiring some Tuya-based CT clamp energy monitors for the total and HP-specific energy usage. I equally find the Daikin app data ridiculously coarse and low value - it’s more to reassure you that something is actually happening, I suspect!

I’m about to start on a solar install to go with it, 14 panels, Givenergy inverter and 9.5kWh battery, which will considerably reduce our use of grid and/or bills, with opportunity to load up overnight in the winter. That’s quite a battery setup you have there!

I also messed about with Home Assistant, fun but ultimately frustrating, the only advantage is that it has a Daikin cloud interface which allows you to store and recall the time-based data from the controller more effectively. I haven’t been running it recently, but will re-investigate hopefully before winter.

Cheers, thanks for the input

15

Hi John,

Firstly, thanks for posting.

I hope we can both update our experience as we go through our first winter and compare as much as we can.

Octopus did come back to me about a month ago to inform me that it wasn’t possible to to fit the open energy monitor free of charge.

I thought it was quite strange that they thought I wanted them to install it with no charge!

They did say that they were going to look at fitting it for me but so far I have heard nothing more.

I don’t feel there is any benefit in chasing them over this but I am determined to have the system so I placed my order for the monitoring system yesterday.

I had my solar panel installers here this week to add something to my panel monitoring and the electrician who I trust will do the electrical work for me.

I know how to do it myself but I just feel more comfortable with a professional doing the work. I will assist him and make sure I understand what we do and get it done how I want. It helps that I know his work and have complete faith in him.

The plumbing is quite straightforward and I know I can drain the system and do this myself. The only part I don’t feel confident about is refilling the water and purging air from the system.

I have a plan though and I’ll let you know if it is successful.

My panels and batteries seem over the top at first glance but it has really worked well so far, my exports since April have generated me £1,200 so far net of any small imports, enough to get me through the winter.

I am still on Flux and expect to be so for another four to six weeks, I am still exporting over 30 kWh a day at the moment on average.

I will switch back to Economy 7 at some point. I am hoping that Givenergy will come out with their EMS soon so I can add another ac charger meaning I can get through the winter on only night time electricity imports.

I have fitted a ct clamp monitor to my heat pump feed so I can see the actual energy use. We are using around 650 watts a day to heat our tank and about 4 kWh for the weekly legionella cycle.

We used 43.96 kWh in August and my Daikin app reports 44 kWh.

I also now know that the Daikin heat pump consumes around 15 watts an hour on standby.

I also have all I need to install Home Assistant and monitor the heat pumps internal data. I also found Home assistant difficult and had problems with my Sandisk usb memory sticks getting corrupted. I have some new memory sticks that I bought whilst on holiday and will have another go when I feel up to it!

I’ll update this more as time goes on

Regards,

Matthew.

16

Note-comparing - yes indeed.

Usage - MMI says 4kWh for legionella, 1kWh for daily water, so I guess it’s just decimal points - not much individually but loads over a year!

I’m still on Octopus basic, haven’t plucked up the courage to go for a “costly cooking” rate, at least not without some sort of offsetting mechanism. We could of course change our habits, which we probably will with that impetus. My plan is to go for Flux or whichever works out most cost effective - the JFDI part of me says “Agile”, because of the upside, in combination with a better export rate.

I installed HA on a RPi I had handy, so after an abortive “raw” install, I went for the Docker approach and it all worked fine. My only problem was getting data out of it, because it only keeps 10 days of history and thus it’s rather useless for longer term monitoring, but I found an API and wrote some Python to extract data and stick it in a SQLite database for the time being.

In respect of drain/refill, you should have some auto air venting at the top of your system, I don’t think the installers did anything special to make that work. They had to come back to install a mis-sized radiator that just had inline valves to isolate it, and also do some heavyweight power flushing, and they just filled it up and it’s been fine, as far as I could see. Do it now, and you have time to get a plumber in! I suspect their installers are pretty busy installing, and snag fixing, so don’t have time to do “off-topic” modifications like yours.

Cheers
J

17

I have isolator valves on the flow and return to the heat pump.

I really only have to concern myself with the heat pump filling up again, maybe a bit simplistic but I don’t think it is too difficult.

I just don’t want to mess it up as it is our hot water and heating.

I am quite handy at this sort of thing, I have plumbed heating systems and wired houses before, but I am an accountant, a bit older and a bit lazy with just enough money to be able to pay somebody else to do it!

I have a small computer from work that is almost new that I can run HA on, I just had problems with Sandisk usb drives that kept getting corrupted with no way to fix.

I still haven’t fully decided on which tariff to go for over the winter but I know I want to be on Flux for as long as possible.

I added lots of panels this year and I am guessing as to their performance over the winter. So far they are doing better than I expected, I hope I can get well into November before I need to change, we’ll see.

How are you going to run your heating?

I plan to use pure weather compensation.

If I have our radiator sizing correct then I will be able to just leave all my trvs wide open.

My only concern is that the radiators in the bedrooms my not be enough, I am sure they are but they are the ones I will change if necessary.

If I need to change I will take some K2s from downstairs and move them upstairs and then fit K3s downstairs so I can reduce my flow temperature.

I may do that next spring in any case but I need to see how the winter goes with what we have.

I am more concerned at making this as efficient as I can than saving money, its become a bit of a challenge/hobby.

I am convinced that heating zones and trvs will hurt the efficiency, my aim is to balance the flow temperature to the heat loss of the house according to the outside temperature.

I just want the water to flow for as long as possible at the lowest flow temperature to keep us warm.

I am confident that we won’t be cold, I do know that the heat pump and radiators we have are enough to keep us as warm as we would ever want, that is 20c or more.

I didn’t do this to sit in the cold just to save money :slight_smile:

18

We moved to this house 2 years ago and it had 4 kWp of panels installed in 2014.

For the first eighteen months we did organise ourselves around the solar generation to some extent.

Our setup now with 13.6 kWp of panels and 38 kWH of usable battery storage means that is less of an issue.

Now we don’t really have to think about it at all.

Even if we import electricity at times I don’t really care as if we pull it from the grid and it doesn’t go into our batteries then we just have more to export later the same day or the next day.

As long as the export payment is close to the import rate it doesn’t matter. I know there are charging losses but as long as it’s close it’s an an amount I am happy to live with for our convenience and lifestyle.

In the last seven months we have imported 10 to 15 kWh per month.

Our system is designed to make life comfortable and efficient and is centred around the heat pumps needs in the winter…

19

That all makes sense. What batteries are you using for that cracking storage setup?

20

I have four Givenergy Gen2 9.5 KWh batteries.

I did two bouts of additional panel installation adding two batteries each time, it meant I paid no VAT on the battery installation, a considerable saving.

I would have done it in one go but wasn’t sure how well the panels would work on my north east facing roof so I did it a bit at a time.

I actually added some on my south east facing garage first, I already had some but the new one have more shading issues from the house.

Then I added the whole roof on the back of the house facing north east.

Then I got greedy and filled up the back of the garage!

My original FIT system produces 4 mWh a year and I expect the new panels to add 7 to 8 mWh a year.

Our house consumes about 3 mWh a year and I expect the heat pump to consume another 3.5 mWh.

We should end up with a net export of 4.5 to 5.5 mWh a year

With our FIT payments that is a net income of around £2,000 a year and I pay nothing for energy.

It is worth £4,000 a year to us and so we get our money back for the capital cost in seven to eight years.

We are not too heavy on the batteries for most of the year, I’m not sure how long they will last but it will be more than ten years as they are guaranteed. We may lose some capacity of course.

The panels will last much longer although the inverters won’t but they are also guaranteed for ten years.

I don’t think we can lose unless energy prices seriously fall which I can’t see happening in the medium to long term.

But again, this was never about money, it has always been about me feeling good about what we have done and not burning anything.

I am no eco warrior or anything like that, this just makes me happy that I have done all I can not to pollute our local area.

21

Hi Trystan, I’ve been following the recent thread to which your f-in-law provided some great analysis, and also showed data from his P1P2 interface.

I’m really interested in improving my EDLA09D3V3 performance, and this might be a short-term instrumentation solution - certainly ColinS’s data looked pretty good. There are lots of proposals on the GitHub site and I’m wondering what exact configuration/build etc. you used to install the P1P2 interface. Since it appears to work, I’m thinking the load of an MMI, a single Madoka and the P1P2 gizmo doesn’t overload the bus in this case.

Cheers thanks

22

@TrystanLea were you able to integrate the P1P2 into the emonhp?

Just received mine and wondered if there was a way to have it publish via MQTT to the energy monitor rather than home assistant?

23

Yup, providing you’re prepared to change the MQTT publish topic to something like “emon/ASHP/” and alter/reconfigure the code to send each data item as a separate message, with no JSON, just a string value like “30.2”. Then EmonCMS’s MQTT subscriber picks the values up and makes them Inputs, using the last part of the published topic e.g. “emon/ASHP/Leaving Water Temp” + “30.2” makes an input of “Leaving Water Temp” with a value of “30.2”.

Looking at the P1P2 MQTT documentation, it will send individual values, but with a very complex topic hierarchy, which would have to be simplified to work with EmonCMS as standard. Possible obviously.

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24

Thanks John.

I managed to configure a MQTT bridge on the emonhp to change P1P2/ to emon/ and that seems to have done the trick.

I do now have about 50 new inputs due to all the data the esp is sending but it seems to be working.

25

Hahaha! Good that you got it working relatively easily. That’s pretty challenging, working out what’s interesting, let alone meaningful! It might be a good way to work out why your pump does what it does, with the other MMI-type data. I only have pump data from the serial port, using ESPAltherma, and there’s loads of values in that I’m not collecting.

1 Like
26

Hi @John and @matt-drummer, you both sound like you know a hell of a lot more about tech and monitoring that I do, but would love some advice if you can help. I have just had installed an 8kw Daikin heat pump with Octopus. Unfortunately the radiators they installed were slightly wrong, so had been expecting some bigger rads in some rooms but hopefully this will be righted. I am now trying to figure out how to get the system as efficient as possible. I was surprised that the data accessible from the user interface and app was so basic and thought it would be better as I get a lot more info from my solis inverter app. So I would be interested to hear what you would recommend - sounds like the openenergysystem is the easiest way to go. I haven’t heard of this before? The only thing I have done so far is changed the flow mode (leaving water temp) from set point to responsive weather dependent mode, but we are just 2 days in and I thought I would leave it to it’s own devices for a bit as I should have a follow up with Octopus. Keen to hear any thoughts…

27

Hi Dave,

I am not so tech minded as some of the others.

You really have three choices.

Stay as you are.

Monitor with certified heat and electricity meters

Monitor by extracting data from the heat pump.

You clearly want to monitor so if you choose to monitor via the heat pump’s internal data then you need something like ESPAltherma and maybe Home Assistant or some other way of using the data, not really my thing but I think it is relatively straightforward to setup and there are plenty of people here to help you with that. It’s not necessarily accurate though but may be good enough for your requirements. It is probably the cheapest way to monitor.

Or get certified meters which is what I have. Not as cheap as the other way but not that expensive, it’s accurate and it works. You will need a plumber and electrician if you don’t have the skills yourself.

The Openenergymonitor level 3 system is superb and I wouldn’t be without it.

I guess you can work out what my choice would be.

28

Thanks Matthew,

I think I could fit the ESPAltherma, but the Openenergymonitor system may be the way to go and I would probably not take on myself. I had some discussions with a heatgeek assured installer as I didn’t trust the Octopus calculations and recommended rad schedule (so not surprised I have had problems with the install), so I may go back to them for the monitoring. I will just sit tight for a bit and check how the system beds in and hopefully see someone from Octopus in the next few weeks.

Cheers,

Dave

1 Like
29

@Djwats

I had a heat geek do a full heat loss survey followed the installation of an oversized edla09 and turning the house into a sauna.

They not only made lots of good recommendations they also gave me the radiator sizes needed for a 40°c flow rate and the heat loss of every room and the house as a whole.

This allowed me to complain to the octopus that it was incorrectly sized and it is now in the middle of being fixed (pump has been changed radiators are on backorder hopefully by end of month).

If you are able to get a heat geek to install the open energy monitor kit that would give you visibility of the performance (and more grounds to complain if it does not work as per your contract) but may also be worth a heat loss survey (even though it will cost you).