There seems to be so many FSV that don’t have any clear explanation of what they do, so Im struggling to full get to grips with my controller. What I really want to know is
If I set FSV 2091 to 0 not use, which I have at the moment, is water law active? As the controller doesn’t say water law on it. I just set the current required room temp to 28 degrees and the heat pump is on. It seems to adjust the water flow temp accordingly to outside temp.I get around my desired room temp of 21.
If i set FSV 2091 to to 1-4, then I don’t get an option to set the room temp on the controller, just adjust the Water Law flow temp adjustment up or down by up to 5 degrees. But the controller says “water law auto”. So is this total weather comp? Will the heat pump operate differently depending on this setting?
When I’ve set FSV 2091 to 1, the heat pump doesn’t ever turn on. Even though the outside temp is well below the maxium outside temp I have set up in water law settings. Is there some other setting I need to have on for it to work with this setting?
Whenever I think I’ve got to grips with the controller I find some new setting and without any clear explanation in the user manual. FSV 4053 any one?
I’d be the first to agree that the manual hasn’t survived translation from Korean that well.
I assume that you use the Samsung roomstat (located in the remote display) rather than a third party roomstat (i.e. you are using #2093 rather than #2091/2 for LWT control)?
If so, I did recently contact Samsung (UK Tech Helpline) and they said a couple of relevant things:
Q: Is true that water law cannot be disabled using FSV#209x?
A: (I quote literally, typos included): “Essentially yes, when you are uing 3rd party thermostats or the Samsung controller the flow temperature is controlled via the W/L settings in FSV 201, 203, 203 etc. The only time water law is not in use is when the thermostats are de-activated and the controller set to leaving water temp. The target flow temp can then be manually controlled in the zone section on the front screen, in this set up the system is thermo on constantly and will run to maintain the target flow temp.”
Q: With #2093=1 the LWT rises quickly to WL temp and then rises slowly until the roomstat is satisfied. Is this what you would expect?
A: “When FSV 2093 is set to 1 (room temperature only on/off) The heat pump is controlled using the water law parameters, however when target flow temperature is met the heat pump keeps running but will ramp down to minimum Hz. This control is maintained until controller set point is reached.”
I’m not sure whether these responses answer your questions (#4061 also appears to be relevant, but the manual explanation of the latter completely baffles me).
But I infer that:
If #2093 (if using the Samsung roomstat) or #2091/2 (if using a 3rd party roomstat) are set to 0, a fixed LWT setpoint is used, rather than the variable one calculated using water law (i.e. independent of outside temperature). Edit 1: Any roomstat would be ignored.
If #2091/2 or #2093 are set to 1, the controller applies WL to control compressor speed (down to minimum), but doesn’t switch it off until the relevant roomstat is satisfied. This will mean that LWT will continue to rise if, even at minimum compressor speed, the roomstat is not satisfied.
If #2091/2 or #2093 are set to 2-4, the controller uses either WL or roomstat to stop/start the compressor, whichever happens first (the only difference being how the circulating pump is run when WL setpoint is reached - off (#209x=2), on (#209x=3), or cycling (#209x=4).
My understanding is that the controller parses its inputs every x seconds (about 5-10 it appears) and calculates the new outputs (e.g. compressor speed, expansion valve position, circulating pump speed) accordingly. In the case of #4053, Samsung have revealed that:
New PWM o/p(%) = Current PWM o/p(%) + (LWT - RWT - #4052) * #4053
Make of that what you will…
Sarah
Edit 2: My original post had #2091/2 and #2093 transposed. I think the above is now correct.
#2091 relates to external thermostat operation, if you’re using the Samsung wired controller and don’t have a 3rd party thermostat e.g Honeywell etc. then #2091 does not apply to you.
Using the Samsung wired controller without 3rd party thermostat is the best and simplest way to run the system IMO.
Water law will still be active when #2091 = 0 i.e the flow temperature will be determined by the outdoor temperature.
Is the Design Guide in the public domain? I’ve seen the odd screenshot, but there may be other nuggets of wisdom (e.g. algorithm strategies) elsewhere that might be useful.
I’ve got the Samsung wired controller only, so have set 2091/2 to not use.
I’ve set 2093 to Room temp and WL.
I would like to see the design guide if it is publicly available. I’m not sure why all the control documentation is so lacking in info and detail. Is it that Samsung don’t really want you playing with the controls, just have your engineer set it all up for you, so the property owner doesn’t have to engage with it?
Thanks @Topaz, but your link doesn’t refer to the Design Guide - it refers to the User Manual (which I assume all installers provide).
From what I’ve seen of the snippets posted on this forum, the Design Guide is aimed at Samsung field engineers/subcontractors as it contains details of the various algorithms used in the controller, and is not normally available to heat pump owners - even if @glyn.hudson has a copy - probably because it is proprietary (contains strategies and design details which might be useful to competitors).
If you haven’t already seen it, the Installation Manual is also helpful:
Oh you’re right. But I’m so used to reverse all possible thingy within the samsung unit, that I’ve assumed there were higher level documentation , thanks for the head up.
Yes, that’s the design guide I was referring it. I’m not sure if there is a newer one now, but not much has changed control wise since Gen 6. The OP didn’t mention a specific Samsung model
It is my understanding from comments here that the wired controller would also act as the thermostat if you don’t configure an 3rd party thermostat.
In my case I am considering an install that would preferably involve the wired controller being positioned in the living room directly above a radiator. I therefore would expect this would result in distorted temperature readings due to that close proximity.
Other than the obvious step of not locating the wired controller in that location would it be possible to have two wired controllers and define which is the thermostat? Or would it be better to use a 3rd party thermostat?
Any thoughts on choices for a 3rd party thermostat? What wiring would be involved for a 3rd part thermostat? Do Samsung do a separate thermostat for this situation?
PS. On a related topic, I am also considering a Samsung AC unit in the same living room, would it share the same wired controller or need a second one? If a second one would there be the same issue over it acting as a thermostat or would the wall unit itself have a thermostat hidden inside it?
Hi John,
Others (e.g. @glyn.hudson) will have a more thorough perspective than I, but FWIW my understandings are:
Yup, the Samsung wired controller contains a roomstat, but this needs to located sensibly if you want to use it, as you obviously recognise…
No, the MIM controller only accepts one Samsung remote controller (terminals F3/4 if you look at p93 in the Installer’s Guide referenced above).
My Honeywell wireless roomstat T3R works fine for me. My installer wired it across B20/22 (Installer’s Guide p92), though I had to change some of the factory settings in the T3R to avoid timing conflicts with the MIM - easy, and described elsewhere on this forum.
No idea. You could ask Midsummer Wholesale, but you can buy the Honeywell for under £100, if you don’t want anything fancy (some roomstats are “smart” and - allegedly - anticipate and optimise your heating needs/times/temperatures from your history and tariff information, but they cost more, and you only get what you pay for…)
I suspect that any AC controller would need to be independent of the HP controller. (When I asked Samsung about enabling the space cooling option available in the Gen 6, they confirmed that I’d need a separate roomstat, and gave me wiring instructions. But this begs the question, if your Samsung heat pump offers space cooling, why install a separate AC unit??)
You can buy a remote temperature sensor (MRW-TA, Remote Temperature Sensor - MRW-TA) which replaces the temperature sensor in the wired remote, so you can put the remote where you want and the temperature sensor in a sensible location.
Hi Sarah, LWT does not always continue to rise as you suggest when 2091/2 or 2093 are set to 1. When it is cooler outside the target LWT as determined by the water law settings is usually high enough for the emitters to be providing more than the minimum output from the ASHP. In this case the LWT will remain at target until switched off by the thermostat, but it will not continue to rise - it will stay constant.
Only when it is milder outside, does the LWT continue to rise above the target value because in this case the emitters cannot match the minimum heat output from the ASHP at the lower LWT.
As some additional info - particular in response to @SarahH the Samsung unit I am considering getting is the new Mono HT R290 model
It seems to be different in combining the outdoor unit with the pump, expansion tank, etc. in the outdoor unit. This is likely to be very helpful to me as I have a small old house and in the kitchen, bathroom, etc. there is a lack of space to locate these ancillary items. It is also an allegedly quieter Mono family unit and a HT model which supposedly is more suited to older properties with radiators rather than underfloor heating.
As far as I can see the only model that Samsung do which potentially can combine heating and cooling is the TDM Plus.
The referred to remote temperature sensor seems exactly what I was looking for. Does anyone know for certain if this will work with both the Mono HT R290 and a Samsung multi-split AC unit. (Likely this will involve two sensors? One for each system.)
I suspect that you are confusing the Samsung R290 ranges slightly. There is the Gen 7 Monoblock that your link refers to (which is just the Outdoor Unit), and the G7 Integrated version, which also contains the circulation pump and expansion tank that you mention, and also the MIM controller. You can see both (with their respective manuals) on the Midsummer Wholesale website:
As far as I can see from the manuals, both ranges offer space cooling as well as space heating.
I have a 3rd party wireless room thermostat (EPH CP4) which I use to control my Samsung Gen6 and I don’t see any obvious disadvantages other than the additional cost (~£60).
I can still control the system using #2091 and decide if I want the room stat only to control the call for heat, or to also allow WL to also control the compressor cycling.
Being a wireless controller I can easily position it anywhere for best in room accuracy, away from radiators and out of direct sunlight as the sun moves around the room.
It’s also programmable, so I can set schedules and desired room temps, allowing for easy and flexible control. For example, I may set an overnight setback set of 18C, then want 19C daytime temp and finally we may like 20C in the evenings when we are less active and feel colder. Having the programmable wireless controller allows us to easily achieve that with a simple controller.
@SarahH
I re-read the page I had linked to. It does cover multiple models but the one I was intending is the EHS Mono R290 Pump aka. G7 R290 Integrated Heat Pump. This does appear to be part of the now expanded Mono family and hence be both a quieter model and a HT model but with the benefit of the additional components being part of the outdoor unit. (You still need a DHW tank and I plan to get the ClimateHub Mono.)
I still am convinced none of the Mono family support cooling only the TDM Plus. I have previously queried this with Samsung in relation to the original Mono HT Quiet and they confirmed this back then.
Ciao everyone, I’m new to the forum and this thread is just great: so many insights!
i need some help, and would love to hear from you folks!
I have WL and Mixing valve installed.
Mixing valve is separating the floor heating, from the basement with raidators (which anyway i only turn seldomly, so we can assume it is always off).
what i am experiencing is that:
if i set the #2091 to 2-4 (so having also WL to be able to switch off the compressor and not just the room thermostats) what happens is that when temp raise too much, the compressor shutdown and it reset the mixing valve all of a sudden.
This closure causes that suddenly only cold water start to flow into the floor circuit: this is because the room thermostats are still ON, keeping the water pumps in the floor circuits active. So the temperature drops immediately, not benefitting from the buffer (as the mixing valve is closed) and causing the temp sensor to turn on the compressor after a couple of minutes.
the valve then slowly reopen, making hot water flowing in and triggering the same loop over and over.
my expectations would be that when WL stop the compressor, the valve should maintain the same position (or adjust slightly) so it could consume the hot water from the buffer until temp slowly drops and compressor could be turned on again.
do you know if this mixing valve behaviour is intended? and why?
If however i set #2091 to 1, then the mixing valve works fine as it never reset.
But then also the compressor never stops (unless both my room thermostats go off). and that leads to a slow but steady increase in water temp (up to 55C) which then forces the mixing valve to start mixing and it just feel very inefficient. it is warming water up to only mix it with cold water when it should just present water as per WL…
i called assistance several times but they never managed to set it up properly.
any guess?
, thanks for the head up.
