Recommendation for ASHP Cylinder?

myatix · 2024-02-03T07:35:40.093Z

Hi Everyone,

I am looking for some recommendations on indirect unvented 300l cylinders for a Vaillant Arotherm Plus 7kw???

Ideally a good performance with a sensible price tag.

I have looked at the Newark HG cylinders but they don’t seem to be financially viable when you do the math.

I have also been looking at Vaillants unistor 300l cylinder which might be an option but would really like to have some input on optimising the DHW side of things with a solution that would provide a viable return based on the investment.

Thanks for any advice!

LeiChat · 2024-02-03T09:56:53.333Z

Newark build cylinders to order so you could opt for one with a smaller coil that would potentially save you some upfront expense.

Do you definitely need 300L? I imagine there’s some saving to be made by opting for a smaller capacity.

Will be interesting to see the Heat Geek video, that I presume is coming, detailing how much benefit the larger coil provides.

Bramco · 2024-02-03T09:57:57.034Z

We went with a Newark 300l standard ASHP cylinder which has a 3m2 corrugated coil. It was a custom built one as we wanted two immersions for a solar diverter as well as several sensor pockets.

We have had an issue with it though - this is from what is called dynamic resonance. It can sound like a jet engine. I had an email conversation with Newark about this and of course their attitude was that our plumber specced it and therefore it was our issue not theirs.

There is apparently a way round this which is to add a bypass valve in parallel with the coil to divert some of the flow - we’ve not done this yet as it means draining down the system.

The issue isn’t a real problem for us, as with our build, we only need to run the ASHP for heating for a short period every day, so we only use the ASHP for heating on the Octopus Go cheap night rate and the DHW immersions run at the same time on a schedule on the diverter. So we never use the ASHP on both heating and DHW. If we did have it on DHW as well, then that would take priority which is not how we want it to function.

Long story short, there are quite a lot of ASHP manufacturers that recommend straight rather than corrugated coils - and it’s probably for the dynamic resonance reason. So maybe look round for a simple cylinder with a straight coil about 3m2 and you should be OK.

Also, if you do in the end go for Newark, they may manufacture it with 2 coils - our UFH cylinder has 2. If this is the case, then they should be connected in parallel to the ASHP feed and return - this is not documented anywhere in the info you get with the cylinder. This came out in the emails with them about the noises from the tank.

Simon

PS - there’s been some discussion on other forums about ASHP guarantees and only using the cylinders that are recommended, so check the small print.

PPS, our 9kW Cool Energy ASHP is set to 35C for the UFH, it never reaches this, so runs continuously for the full 4 hour cheap Octopus Go window. That’s with a 200l buffer tank and the ASHP connected to the 3m2 coil. The reason it never reaches the setpoint is of course that the UFH is drawing a similar amount of heat from the tank as it heats the slab.

myatix · 2024-02-03T13:35:54.720Z

Thanks for the responses!

For those who are interested here is the Newark Heat Geek range, here are some specs and prices for their standard range, these can obviously be customised for significantly more cash…

HG Series V1.0 Prices - Dec 2023.pdf (1.7 MB)

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IMG_90451125×1550 229 KB

IMG_90441125×1704 318 KB

IMG_90471125×1618 367 KB

IMG_90481125×1601 253 KB

IMG_90491125×1610 244 KB

Anyone have any experience with other ASHP cylinders? What about Gladhill or Joule or Telford Copper and stainless custom cylinders?

Thanks!

Timbones · 2024-02-03T20:24:04.615Z

This other thread may be of interest:

Heat Geek Series - Heat Pump Cylinders by Newark Heatpump

You were one of many people who, in recent weeks, has requested a copy of the HG Series specification – a range of super-efficient, Heat Pump-ready Hot Water Cylinders, which have been designed by Heat Geek and which are manufactured exclusively by us at Newark Cylinders. Until now, this range has been in development, but the attached specification and price list has just been signed off by Heat Geek, so I’m finally able to distribute it. Please feel free to pass these documents on to anyone el…

And also:

Is Mixergy cylinder a good choice for heat pump install? Heatpump

Hi Zarch, firstly I am non technical. I am looking for a simple system. I am due to have a Daikin altherma 3 8kw ASHP installed. The whole thing is a complete replacement of my existing system, pipes, rads, cylinder etc, complete , total. They have quoted a mixergy cylinder. However having watched the recent Heat Geek video on the mixergy I was concerned about 2 things. Efficiency incl integration Doubling up of maintenance costs and conflicts of responsibility. I approached Daikin, who were…

Timbones · 2024-02-03T20:27:18.095Z

I would point out that hot water heating is typically only around 10% of the overall heating bill, so consider how much benefit you’ll get from optimising the tank you buy…

myatix · 2024-02-03T21:20:53.864Z

@Timbones Thanks for the help and links…

Your point about DHW only being about 10% is very valid and one of the reasons for me asking about other cylinder’s manufacturers options as the Newark HG cylinder just doesn’t make financial sense.
I feel it’s over priced in terms of the value it provides and would love to hear about some other more viable options.

KnightPhoenix · 2024-02-04T16:25:28.803Z

The other option is to reduce hot water usage with WWHR and then you may be able to get away with a smaller cylinder (more space in the airing cupboard) and the COP will be even less relevant as it is an even smaller percentage of your total usage.

I am debating getting both WWHR and the 180l heat geek tank but it is not likely to get the all important wifey approval points until Octopus finish the replacement of the radiators and the reinstall is completed.

While it will cost more and it may never pay itself back just being able to run as green and cheap as possible would be enough for me (and it would keep my stats looking good .

Ian_Calderbank · 2024-02-06T17:43:17.053Z

myatix:

would love to hear about some other more viable options.

I have an advance appliances heat pump cylinder 305-3. 3m2 coil. very happy with its performance and heat loss. It has 4 thermowells which is great for the monitoring geek in me, means I can do this:

image1119×498 55.3 KB

If doing it again I might have gone for the low resistance coil versio, I can’t get more than 26lpm through this one with a 9.5m head pump. they say the breakpoint is at 35 but I’d argue its at 30.

heatup stats are in my data on hpm, system id 45.

myatix · 2024-02-06T18:47:59.028Z

Ian_Calderbank:

If doing it again I might have gone for the low resistance coil versio, I can’t get more than 26lpm through this one with a 9.5m head pump

Very interesting! This might seem like a novice question but basically you are increasing the flow rate to try and increase the efficiency???

Or have I missed something?

myatix · 2024-02-06T19:36:44.188Z

Ian_Calderbank:

If doing it again I might have gone for the low resistance coil versio,

Do you have a link to this cylinder?

Ian_Calderbank · 2024-02-07T11:14:15.587Z

advance appliances

regarding flow rate, I have a 16kw heat pump. with 26lpm I can load the cylinder at ~10kw. If I could get higher flow rate through it I could potentially load it faster. But 10kw is enough, its just an optimisation not a fundamental problem.

marko · 2024-02-07T17:29:08.407Z

Timbones:

I would point out that hot water heating is typically only around 10% of the overall heating bill

Highly variable.

Perhaps so for big old houses.

Not the case for anything small or vaguely recent/insulated.

gck303 · 2024-02-07T20:21:34.147Z

Our DHW is 10% of the overall heating bill.

We have a huge 300L cylinder which is heated to 52C and gets largely emptied most days.

The bigger cylinder allows us to heat it less, which in turn increases the efficiency. I am sure we could achieve the same with a smaller cylinder.

Why did we get a 300l? It was the biggest that we could get throough the front door.

Our entire heating bill is around £100 a month for a five bed terrace. Would love to know what it would have been with our old gas boiler…

ajdunlop · 2024-02-08T13:01:57.919Z

Another thing to consider is sensor pocket locations. The ones on our tank are abysmal for triggering reheats. One right at the bottom in the coil that gets cold as soon as there is any hot water use and one very near the top that when it goes cold is too late to reheat without the shower going cold.

I’ve added a couple of sensor pockets myself by (carefully) drilling through the outer skin of the cylinder and creating a hole in the insulation to push my temperature probe into. My Ecodan is set up with 2 sensors and it still uses the one in the proper sensor pocket in the coil to know it is up to temperature.

Obviously much less of a consideration if your tank is large enough to only be heated on a schedule.

Zarch · 2024-02-08T13:26:09.271Z

marko:

Timbones:

I would point out that hot water heating is typically only around 10% of the overall heating bill

Highly variable.

Correct, highly variable.

Since September when I started logging separate heat pump DHW and Heating stats, my hot water heat output has been 36% of the heat I created.

This value sits about the same as when I tracked my old gas usage.

Ringi · 2024-02-12T20:05:07.605Z

Consider how quickly you need the reheat, as many heatpump have an eco dwh setting that that forces the heatpump to near lowest output so gives good (but slow) results without needing a very large coil

mk1man · 2024-09-12T12:59:46.529Z

I am using the Vaillant 250l Unistor with my 7kW Arotherm and it works great. Re-heat time is quick, cop good and quality of tank excellent. It has brilliant internal tubes for running heat sensor & immersion cables etc and all out of site I can’t fault it. You will probably get better performance out of the HG tanks but is it really worth the extra?

I was originally looking at a Joule as they offered a 250l with same 600mm diameter so shorter than the norm (mine is fitted in warm attic room) but also with 3m coil and 28mm fittings. However when I started looking at feedback I was shocked by the amount of bad experiences, leaking after 18 - 24 months etc with poor customer service.