Samsung Gen7 PWM Pump?

toadhall · 2024-11-29T09:03:13.488Z

Looking at the pictures further up the thread, it’s a UPS3 not a UPM3

api.grundfos.com

Grundfosliterature-6014815.pdf

According to the data sheet it should automatically detect the PWM signal when present. This is of interest to me since I will shortly be trying to PWM a UPS3.

Looking at the PWM input circuitry, on the pump side it is an opto with a current limit. So it would be quite likely that when you connect it up the voltage would appear to collapse (depends on driver circuit in heat pump) because it is essentially a current driven input.

jakeymd1 · 2024-11-29T09:36:08.754Z

According to the data sheet it should automatically detect the PWM signal when present. This is of interest to me since I will shortly be trying to PWM a UPS3.

This is my understanding too, but never been able to get it into PWM mode. Let me know how you get on.

I spoke to my installer about it and he’s ordered a UPM4 (which is a variant of what is fitted in the integrated units) which I’m hoping I can fit today. I was also not getting enough flow rate from the UPS3, so it made little sense trying to diagnose this any further.
He asked me to clean the filter too, which did get me from 9lpm to 14lpm on CH and 15lpm on DHW, but still a way off the 20lpm I need. Flow rate has started dropping again, so I probably need to regularly clean the filter until I can have the whole system flushed in a couple of weeks.

jakeymd1 · 2024-12-03T19:03:16.939Z

Still no luck with PWM. Fitted the UPM4 tonight and it’s still just running at fixed speed. Once, when i tried a different pwm cable the speed did start to jump up and down very quickly (changing speeds in less than a second). It also didn’t stop doing this when driven with a 0% signal from the controller. I haven’t been able to replicate this since turning the controller off.

The PWM light on the pump does light up (see image below) but does not flash to say that a PWM signal is established. Starting to think this may now be a Samsung issue, and not a pump issue.

Any words of wisdom from anyone would be greatly appreciated.

Also still only getting 16-17lpm on max speed, the data sheets for each pump seem to suggest I should be seeing a much bigger increase in speed.

20241203_1904311920×3410 181 KB

20241203_1905451920×3410 676 KB

glyn.hudson · 2024-12-03T23:05:00.794Z

jakeymd1:

Still no luck with PWM. Fitted the UPM4 tonight and it’s still just running at fixed speed. Once, when i tried a different pwm cable the speed did start to jump up and down very quickly (changing speeds in less than a second). It also didn’t stop doing this when driven with a 0% signal from the controller. I haven’t been able to replicate this since turning the controller off.

Oh dear, sorry to hear. This is exactly what I experienced with my Gen6. I updated the firmware on the heat pump which fixed the issue. But I struggle to believe that this bug has been carried over to the Gen7. Try contacting Samsung technical support, they are quite helpful tech.aircon@samsung.com

jakeymd1:

Also still only getting 16-17lpm on max speed, the data sheets for each pump seem to suggest I should be seeing a much bigger increase in speed.

If you’re only seeing 16-17 lpm at max speed, then this could be the reason why your pump is not modulating? The flow rate might not need to go any lower if the heat pump is working hard. What size is your HP in terms of kW output? Do you have any monitoring on this heat pump?

jakeymd1:

the data sheets for each pump seem to suggest I should be seeing a much bigger increase in speed.

The flow rate is determined by the hydraulic resistance of your heating circuit. If your pipework is restrictive and or the circ pump is undersized, then the flow rate will be low, even when the circ pump is running at maximum speed.

Topaz · 2024-12-04T14:20:54.476Z

I too am interested in firmware upgrade on my GEN7 5kw, at least knowing if there’s any available. I also have observed almost no change in the PWM (I have the integrated unit). But when I manually cast the PWM I want, then the MIM applies it and the UPM4 respects it.
So I guess it could be related to the firmware.
Best regards,

jakeymd1 · 2024-12-04T15:29:57.482Z

What do you mean by manually casting the PWM?

My installer is coming back round next week. He has the tools needed to upgrade the firmware so I’ll speak to him about it.

Topaz · 2024-12-04T16:15:56.373Z

jakeymd1:

What do you mean by manually casting the PWM?

I found out that writing to the 0x40C4 modbus register can “limit” the PWM. I use it to play and observe the CoP depending on it.

jakeymd1:

My installer is coming back round next week. He has the tools needed to upgrade the firmware so I’ll speak to him about it.

That would be wonderful, I guess it’s merely a USB RS485 adapter, or a sdcard (I know both methods work for firmware upgrade).
BR

jakeymd1 · 2024-12-04T17:05:56.753Z

Thanks @glyn.hudson.

I might give the email a try, but my installer is coming back on the 10th so I’ll ask him to try a firmware update first.

It’s an 8KW heat pump, my calculated heat loss is 5 - 6 KW.

Monitoring here:
https://emoncms.org/app/view?name=MyHeatpump&readkey=53646698bd10ba801ad47516e7e4a0bc

Any changes to flow rate were from me restricting the flow manually or changing the speed profile on the old pump, something that’s not possible on the new pump. I’m looking forward for the next 12 hours, getting the average outside temp and setting my flow rate according to a spreadsheet that someone else has shared on here (sorry I can’t remember who) that I’ve modified to include ideal flow rates.

image1693×725 94.6 KB

My installer should also be installing some low head-loss radiator valves when he returns, so hopefully that opens things up a bit. Aside that that, it’s completely open, 1 TRV on our bedroom radiator as the missus can’t sleep if it’s too warm and my tinkering can’t interfere with that. Some radiators are closed down quite a lot as they’re too big for the rooms (compared to other radiators in the house).

I’ve borrowed the multi-meter and oscilloscope from work again to do more investigating tonight.

glyn.hudson · 2024-12-04T17:17:46.211Z

Topaz:

That would be wonderful, I guess it’s merely a USB RS485 adapter, or a sdcard (I know both methods work for firmware upgrade).

You need an S-NET dongle to update the FW:

midsummerwholesale.co.uk

Samsung S-Net Pro Dongle MIM-CO2N

Samsung S-Net pro dongle for interfacing Samsung heat pump controllers to a computer or laptop

and SNET PRO software: https://www.samsunghvac.com/Software-Downloads/SNET-Pro2

You can see what firmware versions are available via the Samsung Partner Portal: GlobalPartner

My FW updated is detailed in this post below, YMMV. I have a Gen6, so FW could be totally different for Gen7, check the hardware versions carefully before updating!

Samsung MIM-C02N S-NET Pro Dongle Heatpump

No, apparently the UK Samsung technical don’t get to see any FW change logs themselves I have a AE050RXYDEG-EU heat pump. All I know is that updating my indoor controller MIME03CN (DB91-02103B) to 220614 seem to fix my pump PWM. It wasn’t modulating at all before, now it’s modulating correctly My Main Micom (DB91-02091B) is running firmware 190704, the latest firmware for this is 221130. However, without a changelog and because my HP is working well, I’m a bit hes…

SarahH · 2024-12-04T18:07:25.527Z

@glyn.hudson I think you have some of us at a bit of a disadvantage, maybe because you qualify for a Business Account, hence can access the Partner Portal.

For those of us who can’t, even if they have a (borrowed ) MIM-C02N, how can they check that their FW is up to date? Your link above referred to DB91-02103B and DB91-02091B, but I don’t see these mentioned in my C02N outputs (I see DB91-02450A 220706 Main Micom and DB82-07081A 220622 EEPROM vers, which look different to yours).

In words of one syllable, where do I find my current FW versions, and the latest versions?

PS I’m not all that happy with the S-Net Pro2 software, which seems to mangle some of the MIM-E03EN data, like not showing compressor current with believable values (and calling the units degC rather than amps). I’ve asked Samsung UK Tech Helpline for help but still await a response…)

Sarah

Timbones · 2024-12-04T18:13:40.561Z

jakeymd1:

a spreadsheet that someone else has shared on here (sorry I can’t remember who) that I’ve modified to include ideal flow rates.

Glad you found this useful. I’ve added min flow rate to my original sheet, with a option for glycol.

jakeymd1 · 2024-12-04T19:21:01.442Z

@SarahH I’ve just managed to register myself a business account using my personal email and now have access to quite a few resources. I have found firmware for my MIM-E03EN but nothing under the outdoor unit product code.

jakeymd1 · 2024-12-05T19:35:23.058Z

@glyn.hudson @Topaz @toadhall

I have bought a cheap PWM controller from amazon and now have PWM working on the pump, though not automatically controlled from the heatpump.
Until the controller PWM starts working, i still have to look at the weather forecast and set the PWM accordingly. I have been through and recorded the flow rate for each PWM setting so it’s at least quicker and easier. The pump speed seems to only vary with 7% duty cycle increments.

Screenshot_20241205_193420_Sheets1920×679 141 KB

Uploading: 20241205_184529.mp4…

glyn.hudson · 2024-12-07T00:42:55.426Z

SarahH:

@glyn.hudson I think you have some of us at a bit of a disadvantage, maybe because you qualify for a Business Account, hence can access the Partner Portal.

Can anyone not sign up? I don’t think they verified a business name.

SarahH:

For those of us who can’t, even if they have a (borrowed ) MIM-C02N, how can they check that their FW is up to date?

The current FW version is listed on SNET:

fw491×897 56.6 KB

To update the FW you need to use the MIM ribbon cable, which is different to the normal way to connect the MIM for data logging. I think there’s also a switch on the MIM which needs to be adjusted.

TBH I feel like I don’t know enough about Samsung FW to advise anyone to update it. I think it’s quite easy to brick the HP if the wrong FW is uploaded. There’s also no way I could see to roll back the FW and Samsung don’t provide change logs. The whole process is quite opaque and could easily end in disaster!

glyn.hudson · 2024-12-07T12:24:25.128Z

jakeymd1:

@SarahH I’ve just managed to register myself a business account using my personal email and now have access to quite a few resources. I have found firmware for my MIM-E03EN but nothing under the outdoor unit product code.

Nice! It’s the indoor unit that I updated which fixed the PWM, I think it’s the indoor unit which is responsible for running the circ pump and generating the PWM.

As far as I recall, my indoor unit is MIME03CN (DB91-02103B) I updated the firmware to 220614 which seemed to fix my PWM issue.

But as I mentioned before, I have a Gen6 so YMMV

glyn.hudson · 2024-12-07T12:33:09.226Z

SarahH:

For those of us who can’t, even if they have a (borrowed ) MIM-C02N, how can they check that their FW is up to date?

I think these are the latest FW versions for your unit

Samsung MIM-C02N S-NET Pro Dongle Heatpump

Nice work! I think partner hub is showing that DB91-02450A_220706 is the latest version for your HP [Screenshot from 2024-04-08 00-19-33] Same for the EEPROM [Screenshot from 2024-04-08 00-27-31]

toadhall · 2024-12-10T18:28:36.591Z

jakeymd1:

This is my understanding too, but never been able to get it into PWM mode. Let me know how you get on.

It worked fine. When the PWM signal starts up the pump uses that in preference to the speed selected by the button. The green LED also flashes slowly to indicate it is using PWM. When the PWM signal stops it reverts to the preset speed and the LEDs go back to as they were before PWMing

jakeymd1 · 2024-12-10T18:43:21.806Z

Yeah that’s the same as what I’ve found on my now installed UPM4. Except I’m sending the PWM signal from a standalone PWM controller as its still not working from Samsung controller.

jakeymd1 · 2024-12-31T20:02:45.666Z

Update - I was speaking to Samsung tech support before xmas and they think there is an issue with the PCB in the MIM-E03EN. They are sending me a replacement under warranty next week.

It seemed that while I was getting a PWM signla my voltage was 7.5V (low) and 12.1v (high). The low should be below 1v which is why the pump wasn’t kicking into PWM mode.

I will update again once I’ve replaced it.

jakeymd1 · 2025-01-04T13:12:47.895Z

Replacement PCB arrived yesterday and I swapped it in. Did a manual run at 25 degree flow temp this afternoon to try and force PWM operation and it worked!

Screenshot_20250104_130754_Chrome2560×1541 309 KB